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Dec012008
No place for dead terrorists in ’sacred Mother India’: Muslim group
Mumbai, Dec 1 (IANS) The terrorists behind the Mumbai strike should not get a “final resting place anywhere in sacred Mother India” because Islam does not permit the killing of innocent people, a prominent Muslim organisation said Monday.
Muslim Council president Ibrahim Tai said he has written to the trustees of Bada Kabrastan in south Mumbai, the biggest graveyard in the city close to the JJ Hospital where the autopsies of theslain terrorists were conducted, as well as to Mumbai Police and the state government.
“As per Islamic tenets, killing of innocent persons is not permitted whatever may be the cause. What these terrorists have done is anti-Islam and shames all followers of Islam,” Tai told IANS.
He added that even wasting a drop of water was considered a grave sin in Islam. “These terrorists have killed so many innocents and shed streams of blood. They cannot be Muslims or followers of Islam. So they cannot have a final resting place anywhere on sacred Mother India,” Tai said.
He said the authorities could dispose of the bodies in any manner, but not inter them on Indian land or Indian waters.
At least 183 people were killed in the 60 hours between Wednesday night and Saturday morning when 11 terrorists targeted about 10 locations in the city. Ten died in gunbattles and one was taken captive by the security forces.
The views expressed in this post are those of the writer and are not necessarily endorsed by Mutiny.in
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cynical
001
5:26 pm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm
Religious folk never fails to deliver!
Kislay Chandra
002
6:31 pm
Yeah right . What about the ones who are very much alive and kicking ?
Swati
003
6:32 pm
3 cheers …!!
Ujj
004
6:34 pm
@Kislay Chandra what about them?
Swati
005
6:42 pm
He means the terrorists UJJ!
Pune is rife with hoax ( hopefully) calls. No idea what is up.
Ujj
006
6:55 pm
@swati: hope the same.
workerHalim
007
7:32 pm
good tai
Snehal Joshi
008
7:52 pm
Whats the news on Pune, I don’t see anything on any of the websites.
1conoclast
009
8:16 pm
I really want to see the kind of response this post elicits…
I’m waiting for all the sanjays/red_devils & others I shall not name to say something. I want to see what they’ll come up with this time.
Kislay Chandra
010
10:33 pm
@Ujj
Of course I mean the terrorists . There are home-grown terrorists , there are terrorist camps as well . We all know it is no longer a myth . And we have a very much alive one who goes by the name of Afzal Guru .
Karmadude
011
10:48 pm
India should have a policy that terrorists killed in India will be cremated, and their ashes flushed down the toilet. Meddle with their after life and their date with the 72 virgins!
Kislay Chandra
012
11:00 pm
@Karmadude
Holy Shit man . You really made me Laugh-Out-Loud . Kickass ! And Kudos .
Swati
013
11:03 pm
No idea Snehal…but everyone I know in Pune has recd. these messagesvia SMS. Nothing on TV, I chkd too. Like I said, hope its all a hoax.
1conoclast
014
11:19 pm
Yes Kislay!
After the initial shock of hearing something potentially this controversial had died down, I too laughed out loud at the impact Karmadude’s comment would have on terrorists (who prefer burial) across the World! It’ll really mess with their minds.
The Govt. should make that declaration. Actually they should make a declaration that any terrorist that kills in the name of religion (did these latest guys actually say why they were killing our people?), will have their last rites conducted totally contrary to their preferred way. A comprehensive policy statement that covers all types. The only question is, will that actually deter these aliens who’re out to commit harakiri anyway?
layman
015
11:24 pm
yeah, it will scare them as much as hanging Afzal Guru will deter future suicide attackers…..
1conoclast
016
11:28 pm
cynical @ 001:
Come back here you!
1conoclast
017
11:34 pm
A question comes to mind…
Human civilization has perennially been at war.
And it looks like they are destined to remain that way.
No one seems to want to believe that Jesus, Buddha, Mahavir & Gandhi had a point.
Are there any examples of a people through history who have managed to steer clear of violence?
Kislay Chandra
018
11:41 pm
@Layman
Hangling Afzal Guru is not just about scaring the would-be suicide bombers . And how would a suicide-bomber face what Afgzal Guru did , when we would be long gone along with the bomb strapped to his body . It is more about the system . You commit treason , you die . No matter what . No matter why . Period . The world all over must be laughing at us , an India who could not even hang one guilty-as-hell terrorist . And the terrorists themselves must be rubbing their hands with glee, now they can kill , cry out loud for help, and they would be saved by the champions of human rights and secularism .
Kislay Chandra
019
11:51 pm
@1conoclast
Violence and non-violence are both a part of our human civilization . The 2 sides of the same coin . There cannot be Darkness without Light . But the problem is when one of the states become a permanent fixture . You should not be non-violent all the times, cause some one violent will kick your ass . And of course , the state of violence should end as soon as peace is restored . Vicious Cycle . And this is what I think .
Polar
020
11:54 pm
Lots of people in the world despise the very idea of capital punishment. Many don’t believe in treason either. Many of those people are not secularists.
1conoclast
021
11:55 pm
Kislay,
Your disappointment at your idea of justice not being implemented is palpable; but have you considered that there may be another way? (And I say this purely because of my personal stand on capital punishment)
India is the laughing stock of the World for a Billion reasons, not just one. We piss on roads openly, spit, take bribes, won’t follow traffic rules, steal, cheat, rape & murder on caste/religion issues. Today they must be laughing at us because our leaders can’t unite even in this hour of dire need, because they’re more interested in wresting power. They’re laughing & my head hangs in shame.
Kislay Chandra
022
11:58 pm
@Polar
We do . If don’t defend the principles you believe in ,, no matter what they are , you are a laughing stock .
1conoclast
023
12:01 am
Kislay,
I can see that it’s your personal view, however allow me to influence it a little.
I’ll go back to Buddha. Did he ever feel the need for violence in his life?
Not that I’ve suddenly chanced upon enlightenment. This is my take on things.
1conoclast
024
12:04 am
Kislay @ 022:
Defending your principles no matter what they are is what’ll make us laughing stock/extremist/ultra-conservative/illogical/obdurate/dogmatic/right-wing/other abusive words…
layman
025
12:24 am
as much as i am proud that the people has finally come out and voiced their discontent and anger i am also a bit sad because the reactions all around seems as if the whole of India is baying for blood. suggestions of carpet bombing our neighbors [ because you can never carry out bombing without collateral damage] to desecrating the bodies of terrorists.. i mean come on we are not barbarians…show of strength does not come from behaving in the same way as the psychopaths who carry out the attacks. the danger is as we raise our pitch against Pakistan [quite justifiably] some would use this as an opportunity to target the minority, who are as much a victim of terror as any other Indian [ cause those elements in society do not have the courage to draft into the army to fight a real battle].
Polar
026
12:26 am
Kislay
One might even argue that defending is a necessary part of believing!
Anyway, I was merely pointing out that a belief in secularism does not necessarily imply any other position at all. So not everyone is laughing - not for reasons other than those similar to which 1conoclast has listed.
Now, I happen to be a secular humanist who does not care for patriotism and disagrees with the death penalty - not particularly out of concern for the rights of the criminals, but because we are much better than them.
Kislay Chandra
027
12:29 am
@1conoclast 024
So if Afzal Guru is hanged , like the traitor he is , we’ll still be laughed at ?
layman
028
12:40 am
@kislay 027
if we go about celebrating it …then yes….that man at-least got convicted for christs sake…and how many blasts has occurred since the parliament attack in 2001…we judge a governments toughness and ability on whether they hang a man who is serving life sentence, where there a hundred more even more vicious people out free. has any of the cases been cracked??forget about hanging, has a single person been convicted yet?? correct me if i am wrong.
1conoclast
029
12:50 am
Kislay @ 027:
For many many other things, yes. For the hanging, I’d say Polar & layman have already said all of what I’d have said.
Kislay Chandra
030
1:24 am
@layman , 1conoclast , every other guy who thinks alike
Life sentence is a mere 14 years . Not enough punishment for a traitor . And please, launch a nation wide campaign to get him out of jail, as he is a Kashmiri and suffered a lot . Unlike the Kashmiri pandits , obviously . And when will a spade be called a spade ? At least those who have been captured should be punished , the harshest possible way . I have nothing more to say . I am ashamed , to think that there are Indians who are defending people like Afzal Guru . What’s next ? Save-Kasav campaign ?
Polar
031
1:31 am
I am appalled that you think that that is what we are doing.
layman
032
1:47 am
@ kislay
why is it that every time people can’t find logic they go about ‘branding’ people as ‘anti-national’ terrorist lover..blah blah blah…
i say it doesn’t matter whether that man is hanged or shot or whatever…….but there are more pressing issue..hunt down the perpetrators of the remaining terror attacks…catch them first…prevent further attacks…
neutralizing a threat to a nation begins with catching them, putting them up for a trial and then seeing to it that they don’t walk free ever…whether you throw them into jail for life[ and i mean for life not 14years], blow their brains off or send them to the gallows is inconsequential.
Kislay Chandra
033
3:21 am
@Layman
Did I imply that other “living” terrorists shouldn’t be caught , or that the security structure needs to strengthened ? I am as capable of thinking logically as you are . My bone of contention here is that rules are not being followed . It does matter whether they are hanged or not . First you catch them . Then you take them to a court , and if proved guilty , you HANG them . Because in India, capital punishment still exists . And it is not handed out like to every other criminal . It is awarded after much deliberation over the seriousness of the crime . Is is that hard to understand ? When a nation is not unanimous about punishing those who have harmed it, clearly what else is left . It is as simple as that . And if you are anti-capital punishment , that is another thing , please protest against it , I have nothing against that .
Kislay Chandra
034
11:24 am
And , with respect to what I said , an alive terrorist is a liability as well . Remember IC-814 ? Is the possibility of terrorists asking to free their chums when take up a few hostages that remote ?
1conoclast
035
3:32 pm
Polar @ 031:
Kislay @ 030: Why’re you bringing Kashmiri Pandits into this? Do you see any of us bringing up other “Stranded Wheels of Justice” into this discussion?
This discussion is about Capital punishment v/s a punishment form more suited to an advanced civilization. Just because we have barbaric laws doesn’t mean we should follow them.
You may also want to question why Gladys Staines forgave her family’s murderer, the almost serial-killer dara singh?
Or why Sonia asked for commuting the sentence of her husband’s killer?
Would like to hear your views on this.
sanjukta
036
5:20 pm
I think if there are spotless evidence against a mass killer, he /she MUST be hanged. For the sake of human rights we might give a painfree death, but death it has to be, again, only if the eveidence is absolute and spotless.
1conoclast
037
5:53 pm
sanju…
What if your spotless evidence of today is found to be faulty tomorrow? It’s happened before. What redressal then?
almostinfamous
038
6:26 pm
to the folks arguing that life sentence is ‘only’ 14 years, 14 years in the indian prison system is tantamount to hell. if it’s not so i ask you this… would you spend even one night in a cell? did you even think about it before you said no?
Kislay Chandra
039
11:16 pm
I brought the Pandits because they are Kashmiris as well , the better kind of Kashmiris as compared to Afzal Guru’s of this world . Becuase my heart aches for them . Because they have been persecuted since centuries . And nobody gives a rat’s ass .
I don’t give a damn what other’s do to those who killed their family members . I would like to see them dead . I am sorry I such a small man , but that is what my sense of justice tells me .
2S
040
11:23 pm
Personally I would have the bodies of the terrorists shipped right back into the Karachi port, with the compliments of the Navy. Back to where they came from.
contentious
041
11:33 pm
On a totally different tangent, if I was the “spotlessly” guilty criminal and if I had the choice, I would chose a death by lethal injection (a lesser punishment.)over a life imprisonment (is it only 14 years http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=54882 )…. ..
Call me crazy
2S
042
11:58 pm
Oh surely the torture could be worse. They can be made to watch RGV ki Aag re-runs, you know. Cam quality too, with subtitles in Chinese.
almostinfamous
043
1:06 am
@ 2S: or read your attempts at humour
(PS: i dont want to make personal comments, but this opportunity is too good to resist:)
Sandip Bhattacharya
044
1:35 am
Kislay
I don’t get it. On one hand you are talking about the law of the land. On the other hand there is a legal provision to appeal for the execution to be commuted. Why are you trying to enforce one law but disagreeing with a perfectly legitimate recourse available to him and other execution worthy convicts?
Swati
045
6:31 am
There is a sense of permanency in death. ..a sort of ‘justice delivered’ feeling that is missing in a life sentence. When one is personally affected, I guess one wants justice..and now.
2S
046
11:23 am
@almostinfamous - no problem, anything for the nation
Kislay Chandra
047
12:00 pm
@Sandip
What is it that you don’t get ? The law of the land says that traitors should be hanged . And that is what I am saying . And why the hell should his death sentence be commuted for life ? How hard it is for anyone to fathom that a traitor should be killed ? There may be other “execution worthy” convicts , I don’t give a damn . But convicted terrorists should not be spared . And btw , we never discussed the “perfectly legitimate course of action available” to him till now . You brought it up . And read comment no. 034 .
Swati
048
12:51 pm
You sound like those sword wielding Islam protectors who scream Traitors must be killed. Who gives you any more right than them to take a life?
bhanu kishore
049
1:10 pm
‘no place for dead terrorists…’ and what about who’re alive?!
1conoclast
050
1:29 pm
Kislay,
On 034… Animesh said somewhere if executing criminal after criminal was the solution, then Israel wouldn’t have terror group after terror group after it’s backside evern after 25 years!
The solution is something else I’m sure.
Sandip Bhattacharya
051
1:31 pm
“The law of the land says that traitors should be hanged”
Which “law” is this?
1conoclast
052
1:34 pm
2S: Welcome Back!
swati @ 045: When someone says that to you, you can provide them the links from # 035.
Sandip Bhattacharya
053
1:38 pm
Also, killing prisoners just because you have a spine too weak to stand up to terrorists and their demands seems so wrong isn’t it? On one hand you see countries with a “no negotiation with terrorists” policy, and on the other hand you would like a country which kills its prisoners so that the negotiation process is avoided.
Strange that for people accusing that we are soft on terror, the prisoner killing option is more appealing.
1conoclast
054
2:19 pm
Sandip,
Sound logic in your last statement. Anyone in an unemotional, logical stat should be able to see it.
Kislay Chandra
055
4:34 pm
@Sandip
If someone commits an act of treason , a crime against the citizens of this nation , which is the “law” that punishes that person . I am talking about that law . I cannot possibly imagine what is going in your mind , but I do wonder whether you are for punishing the guilty or not ? I would not want any alive terrorist so that if and when a hostage situation comes up , there is no one to negotiate for . I would like India to have a no negotiations policy , so that the terrorists would think twice before attempting something like that .
@1conoclast
Do not compare India with Israel . We are nothing like Israel . We do not bomb the crap out of our neighbouring country on a slight provocation . We do not indulge in overkill . And killing terrorists who have been caught and convicted may not be the ideal solution , but that is what the current system does , or rather is supposed to do. If you have a problem with that then you should call for a change . But please do not defend the terrorists . You claim to be a patriot , but at times ,you don’t come off as one . And please , what is the ideal solution ?
@Swati
“You sound like those sword wielding Islam protectors who scream Traitors must be killed. Who gives you any more right than them to take a life?”
Thank you .That was very pleasant. But I am not . I am a “trident” wielding “Hindutva” screaming hardliner ! And seriously , are we debating whether capital punishment should be banned or not ? I don’t think so . If you have a problem with that , launch a nation wide campaign , against it . I do not have any moral right to kill anyone . But I will kill those who rape, those who terrorize and those who are traitors to this nation . And I am not asking you to endorse my views .
Kislay Chandra
056
4:39 pm
“Also, killing prisoners just because you have a spine too weak to stand up to terrorists and their demands seems so wrong isn’t it?”
Won’t we come off as weak and spineless if we gave in to their demands ? Assuming there is an alternate course of action , which is not taken . And I didn’t mention anything about killing prisoners . I said “Hang the terrorist” , if he is guilty .
contentious
057
4:52 pm
If an individual is proven without an doubt to be guilty , convicted of treason, rape or any other bestial remorseless act and are on death row, the sentence should be carried through. In that I agree with Kisley Chandra
almostinfamous
058
4:54 pm
my brain asplodes - We do not indulge in overkill . in the same comment as But I will kill those who rape, those who terrorize and those who are traitors to this nation
confused man you are, Kislay.
India is a nation of overkill. we kill not just through military and police actions, we kill economically and socially as well. ask the thousands of families of farmers and weavers who have committed suicide, ask the villagers displaced from homes due to a dam and unable to find a livelihood elsewhere, and be sure to ask the 100+ children who will die tomorrow from malnutrition. ask the homosexuals, hijras and transvestites who are assaulted and beaten by the cops, sometimes to their deaths.
the terrorists cannot even dream of inflicting the sort of damage on our nation that we do ourselves every single day. to me this is the real source of terrorists, the need to hit back at this otherwise unresponsive monolithic state, which has wronged you in a grievous way.
Kislay Chandra
059
5:12 pm
@almostinfamous
I am not all confused about what I said . You are changing the subject . Overkill wrt Israel - Palestine situation . If you don’t recall what happened the last year , then I will state it here . They bombed the crap out of the Lebanese , and the hezbollah . For a very small reason . That is overkill . We don’t even indulge in normal justified kill , leave alone overkill . Indian did not bomb the crap out of Bangladesh when they sent back the mutilated bodies of our soldiers . That was an example .
Though I am not disagreeing with what you said ,it is in a different context . And that is not the subject of this debate .
Swati
060
6:01 pm
What happens, Kislay, to all those who turn them into rapists, killers and traitors and are never brought to book? How far will we go to prevent crime?
Kislay Chandra
061
6:07 pm
@Swati
Better ask a sociologist as to how can crime be prevented . I am afraid I can only think of what to do with those who have committed heinous crimes . And as far as rape is concerned, one of the possible reasons is the skewed sex ratio . So I guess those who prefer sons are to be blamed .
Swati
062
6:58 pm
Doesn’t take a sociologist to see what is wrong with our society and why, Kislay. These problems run much deeper and it would be like popping a pimple without treating it if you just killed the criminals. Ofcouse, you are also not required to agree.
Sandip Bhattacharya
063
7:07 pm
Kislay,
I think the difference of opinion that I have with you are:
1. You believe that once a person has been sentenced to death row, there should be no scope to ask for a pardon from the president (which is a legal provision available to people on death row right now). You are basically against this provision which is already there. And you find no contradiction at the same time saying that law should be followed.
2. You do not believe in the concept of what a jail sentence was originally meant for - to provide a person to reform and redeem himself/herself. According to you, once a person has done a heinous crime, he deserves death and nothing else. I cannot even call this a medieval line of thought because the concept of redemption runs through in many religions and is an essential part of any faith which calls itself compassionate.
3. You somehow keep confusing some of our attempts to explain/support the system of justice in a democratic country with *defending* the criminal. Seems quite a few people nowadays has this mentality - If we try to defend presumption of innocence, one of the fundamentals of justice in a civil society, we are accused of “defending” the accused. If we defend the intention of civil society to reform a person, we are against accused to defending the person in question. Can’t you make out the difference in what we are talking about? Or are you against the whole principle of justice that is present in modern democratic societies?
manish
064
7:33 pm
Sandip Sir,
Why do you want to give scope for people like Afzal Guru.
He is guilty.Hang him & give a solid message.You go against India, face the consequences.Simple.
Keep those dogs in jail & again some hijack will happen & Ajzal is in Pak & India has put his name in most wanted terrorist.Funny.Isn’t it.
Just like what happened with Maulana Azhar. Soldiers died in Kargil war to catch him and their family member saw Maulana Azhar being set free. What impression you are giving.
Redeem/Reform is not needed when you attack dignity of India. Whats the guarantee he wont be involved in any terror activity any more???
What principle of justice you are talking about man???In India justice is already at its lowest level. I wont be surprised if you would say Manu Sharma should be set free. Rape some one and plead for guily. lol.
Kislay Chandra
065
9:21 pm
@Swati
Peace .
I agree with what you say . It is the society which prepares the crime , and the criminal commits it . But on the face of it , there has to be a system which punished those criminals , while at the same time tries to root out the cause as well . But the criminal must not go unpunished . And you do not have agree as well .
Kislay Chandra
066
9:37 pm
// You believe that once a person has been sentenced to death row, there should be no scope to ask for a pardon from the president (which is a legal provision available to people on death row right now). You are basically against this provision which is already there. And you find no contradiction at the same time saying that law should be followed. //
Not for the terrorist . There is crime an there is terrorism . That is all I have to say . And yes, double standards , BUT , that is what I think , if you betray your nation , you should die .
// 2. You do not believe in the concept of what a jail sentence was originally meant for - to provide a person to reform and redeem himself/herself. According to you, once a person has done a heinous crime, he deserves death and nothing else. I cannot even call this a medieval line of thought because the concept of redemption runs through in many religions and is an essential part of any faith which calls itself compassionate. //
I do and don’t . Let’s say there is a rapist , who raped and murdered his victim . Hang him . I don’t think a rapist deserve a chance to reform himself . But there are other less serious crimes , in which it would truly be great , if th criminal got a chance , and he did reform himself . That is my stance . I am no judge or lawyer , and these views are mine . They would make sense to some , and to some they won’t
// You somehow keep confusing some of our attempts to explain/support the system of justice in a democratic country with *defending* the criminal. Seems quite a few people nowadays has this mentality - If we try to defend presumption of innocence, one of the fundamentals of justice in a civil society, we are accused of “defending” the accused. If we defend the intention of civil society to reform a person, we are against accused to defending the person in question. Can’t you make out the difference in what we are talking about? Or are you against the whole principle of justice that is present in modern democratic societies? //
Again , only because the “criminal” in question is a terrorist responsible for the attack on the Parliament , the very symbol of the democratic society you were talking about . And Afzal guru is not innocent . His guilt has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt . That is my take on it . Once again , I must say , double standards , one for the criminal and one for the terrorist .
Swati
067
6:49 am
I first want to know what are the different aspects of the trauma a rape victim suffers and how many criminals are involved in making that act one of the most hineous in our society. It is never a single dimensional crime for sure.
Kislay Chandra
068
12:19 pm
@Every defender of Afzal Guru
Here’s what Arun Shourie had to say . He is no fool , is he ? Even his affliation with the BJP cannot undermine his stature .
“And enforcing the law means carrying out sentences that the law provides. The parliament of India is attacked, guards are killed; one of the killers is tried and convicted, the sentence is confirmed by the Supreme Court, and, eight years after the assault, his “papers are still being processed,” indeed there are signature campaigns against executing the sentence. Given these circumstances, the best thing for a terrorist to succeed in his mission, and then get caught. He will get the best lawyers to defend him. He will get judges who are ever so solicitous about his rights, ever so finicky about procedures. And, of course, he will get activists to shoot off press statements on his behalf. Lawyers better, judges more solicitous, activists more articulate and better networked than any in his own country.”
And here’s some more :-
“But for any of this to happen, the society has to be clear in its mind. This is, it has for 20 years been, war. It can be won only by overwhelming the adversary — not by running after the terrorist, as K.P.S. Gill says, but by out-running him, indeed by over-running him. Not an eye for an eye. For an eye, both eyes. Not a tooth for a tooth. For a tooth, the whole jaw. Human rights? Yes, we will respect the human rights of the terrorists and their sponsors and their local supporters to the extent that they respect the human rights of our people.”
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-knew-about-the-threat-did-nothing-arun-shourie/79457-3-single.html
The terrorism in Punjab was brought down to its knees because a part of the Sikh community said “No” to the Khalistanis , and started taking them down . That is an example to be emulated .
Kislay Chandra
069
12:26 pm
@Swati
“I first want to know what are the different aspects of the trauma a rape victim suffers and how many criminals are involved in making that act one of the most heinous in our society. It is never a single dimensional crime for sure.”
Seriously ? No offense intended here , but as your name suggests , you are a woman , right ? And if I , a man can imagine what a woman who has been raped goes through , why can’t you ? A Rape is an attack on not just a woman’s body , but her soul and spirit . If and when she survives , she has to live with it for the rest of her life . And the shame and humiliation of it , in our society , where the woman is made to feel responsible for what happened to her . The STIGMA of being a rape victim , as if the woman asked for it . How hard is to understand that . And of course , it is not a one dimensional crime . No crime is . But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be dealt with the severest possible punishment .
Swati
070
1:43 pm
Yes Kislay, I am a woman.
When a rape is committed and a woman suffers humiliation, guilt ( not for any fault of her own) and pain for the rest of her life..how many criminals do you see in the picture other than the rapist Kislay and what punishment do u suggest for them?
Kislay Chandra
071
1:59 pm
@Swati
That is a very ambiguous question . Rape is committed for so may different reason . It is used as a tool for punishment . Rioters rape , some do so out sheer sexual frustration . But the common element is the sickness of the rapist . No matter what the reason is , a rapist is a sick twisted bastard , on some level or the other . Whatever the reason was that drove him to it , punish him first , and then you can go about finding why he did so . And you know what punishment I have in mind for them . Though I am not completely sure whether that would make things for difficult for woman or not . I read somewhere that if rape were made a capital offense , the survival rate of victims would go down . I am not sure how true this is. So for the time being , I would stick to the current mode of justice . Personally , it it were up to me , I would have them castrated , and then tortured to death . Call me unhinged , but for Rape is the most heinous of all crimes , and I feel very strongly about it .
Sandip Bhattacharya
072
4:49 pm
@Every %#$ who thinks someone trying to see that the law of the land is followed is akin to defending a convict
I don’t care whether Afzal is hung or shot or kept in jail for ever. It means all the same to me.
However, clamoring “hang him! hang him!” for a convict who is at best going to be in jail for a very long time seems like blood thirsty medieval mentality to me, and not befitting a modern democracy which, it seems, only a few of us are keen to see our country as. I also consider it as really pathetic, the excuse some have to hang him, so that he cannot be bargained for in a hostage situation. This is such a pathetic excuse at so many levels that I cannot even start talking about it.
In fact, I think people who are shouting from the top of the voices about hanging Afzal are doing at least two things seriously damaging to our country, at least partially intentionally.
1. You are distracting us by taking our eyes off the ball, when what we really should be concentrating on is getting more of Afzal’s kind into jail. I am happy just plucking them out from the world and stuffing them in jail for as long as we can. There are provisions (even though I cannot point out whether they are applicable to India) where mass murderers can be sentenced to multiple life sentences. Which should be good enough to send them into jail for ever. But all this noise about hanging Afzal is seriously an issue that we can do without.
2. You are misleading the weak minded in this country into believing that Afzal is getting free??? I have read your blog and from the idea I have of your opinions, I do not believe you are one of these people who are misleading others. But yes, there are many people who are distorting the reality and letting people think that he is going to be walking free any day now.
I don’t care about the stature of Arun Shourie, but i doubt the intention or integrity of any man who suggests that we should somehow bend the law and human rights under certain conditions. It is extremely irresponsible for a former minister to be saying something like that. It is a dangerous precedent and can only lead to a complete breakdown of our judicial system.
And with regard to KPS Gill, having him as a role model says all about Mr. Shourie. I particularly am amazed at this sentence of his.
“”"
Not an eye for an eye. For an eye, both eyes. Not a tooth for a tooth. For a tooth, the whole jaw. Human rights? Yes, we will respect the human rights of the terrorists and their sponsors and their local supporters to the extent that they respect the human rights of our people.
“”"
This should be a good enough indicator to how a “great man” like Mr. Shourie thinks.
I don’t know what to say to people who believe that things like justice and human rights are things which you can selectively apply to people as you decide.
You know, if I really wanted to be vindictive, I would have liked to think that by hanging Afzal we are letting him off too quick. Spending years rotting in an Indian jail is far too much painful than a quick hanging.
Kislay Chandra
073
5:27 pm
@Sandip
//You are distracting us by taking our eyes off the ball, when what we really should be concentrating on is getting more of Afzal’s kind into jail. I am happy just plucking them out from the world and stuffing them in jail for as long as we can. There are provisions (even though I cannot point out whether they are applicable to India) where mass murderers can be sentenced to multiple life sentences. Which should be good enough to send them into jail for ever. But all this noise about hanging Afzal is seriously an issue that we can do without.//
Holy Mother of God ! When did I ever say that the sole objective of the Government,the Judiciary and the Police should be to ensure that Afzal Guru is hanged ? Why the hell are you mis-interpreting what I am saying ? And in India we do not have multiple life-sentences . Here the all sentences are done in parallel , so no matter what , 14 years is the max . The noise about Afzal Guru is there because his file has not reached the President’s desk as yet . And that is due to the minority appeasing politics of Congress .
//You are misleading the weak minded in this country into believing that Afzal is getting free??? I have read your blog and from the idea I have of your opinions, I do not believe you are one of these people who are misleading others. But yes, there are many people who are distorting the reality and letting people think that he is going to be walking free any day now.//
I am neither leading nor misleading anyone . People are free to decide for themselves . He is not getting free , I agree , but why is he NOT dead , when he should have been .
As far as Shourie and Gill are concerned , all a matter of personal opinion man . I would be happy if there were more of them around . And yes , I believe in selective human rights . For those who are human , and those who are NOT . I am sorry , but that is the way I think . Don’t give a damn whether it is medieval , modern or ancient .
And yes , spending years in jail is more painful , but what happens when the sentence is over . He walks free , doesn’t he ? A guy who orchestrated an attack on the Indian Parliament walks free . Do you want that ?
contentious
074
7:44 pm
“Clearing all doubts about what ‘imprisonment for life’ means, the Supreme Court has said such a sentence should be treated as whole of the remaining period of the convict’s natural life and not 14 years or 20 years in jail.”
PLEASE NOTE ALL!
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=5488
Not going specifically into the Afzal Guru case (which has a certain level of ambiguity), any Indian convicted of treason (without any reasonable doubt) and on death row is not deserving of anything but execution of the sentence.
Having said that , capital punishment is getting away a bit too easily as compared to spending the rest of one’s natural life languishing in jail ,with no reprieve….and that is my personal belief.
1conoclast
075
8:34 pm
Kislay @ 055:
1. Comparing because of the approach to terror that we’re discussing. Bombing, Hanging, Firing Squads, Superb Army & Secret Service… has any of that been able to rid them of their enemies?
If you suggest that the terror they face is of their own creation, maybe you will want to look at India’s internal strife. And equally possible culpability?
2. You have in # 073 rather strongly protested your words being misunderstood. Maybe you should apply the same yardstick to yourself before you accuse me of defending terrorists. Hmm?
3. You’ve also stated elsewhere that you don’t care about being branded in a certain way, about not requiring a certificate. Again… you would be well advised to desist from assuming that my patriotism is somehow dependent on a certificate from you.
3.1. When I speak pro-Bihar & anti-mns/thakre, then I’m a patriot. When I speak pro-peace & non-violence, then I don’t come off as one? I think almostinfamous @ 058 is right… you do seem terribly confused.
4. There is no ideal solution. There is only a better, or more civilized/progressive if you please, solution. And capital punishment is not it.
Lastly. From what I’ve seen of you Kislay, I can only say this. You’re an earnest young man & your committment to the well being of your people cannot be faulted. I say this despite your recent jab at me. But you are in all probability young, and therefore in many ways unaware, and therefore looking for information, only part of which is available to you, therefore leaving you confused. And of course, the recent attacks have left your young blood boiling. But there is virtue in calm, in restraint. And remember… Peace hath it’s victories, no less renowned than war.
manish @ 064:
sir… we’re discussing the demerits of capital punishment, not talking about forgiving all criminals…
Kislay @ 068:
arun shourie????? arun shourie???????????
The man is the laughing stock of the world. From rank commoners like me to historians like Romila Thapar & Ramchandra Guha, he evokes only derision.
He tries to bring down Ambedkar, he subtly derides Gandhi. He is an out & out right-wing sympathiser. Probably on their payrolls!
Search my blog for “shourie” for link after link about how widely derided he is! Please do it. To learn more if for nothing else!!!
@ 073: he doesn’t walk free. he serves his sentence & is set free after that. Do you remember India’s dacoits? phoolan & the others?
Vidyut
076
10:02 pm
Uh…. Never mind Afzal, I’m delighted to hear this refusal to bury the terrorists. Not because I care that they are burried or not, but more because its a strong statement from those they claimed to “avenge”. The disgust of the Indian Muslims couldn’t have come through clearer.
Wait. It could have.
*playing scriptwriter*
“Don’t want these guys burried, cremated or anything in India. We don’t like them, we don’t see them as humans beyond the body, which is dead and currently garbage, so there is no question of last rites of any type. Toss them in the sewage system somewhere they won’t choke proceedings.”
Vidyut
077
10:16 pm
BTW, about Afzal, hanging would be too merciful, no? Let him rot in jail. Bring up a new case against him as one ends……. give him the space to reflect and repent and rot.
Kislay Chandra
078
11:03 pm
// 1. Comparing because of the approach to terror that we’re discussing. Bombing, Hanging, Firing Squads, Superb Army & Secret Service… has any of that been able to rid them of their enemies?
If you suggest that the terror they face is of their own creation, maybe you will want to look at India’s internal strife. And equally possible culpability? //
If only India could be somewhat like Israel . If you read my comment then you know I mentioned what the BDR did to Indian soldiers . That called for a show of aggression and strength . But nothing of the sort happened . in fact , I don’t think anything happened at all .
//2. You have in # 073 rather strongly protested your words being misunderstood. Maybe you should apply the same yardstick to yourself before you accuse me of defending terrorists. Hmm?//
I say this for the last time “If a person , commits acts of treason against this nation , which results in the loss of lives , then he/she , if proved guilty in a court of law, should be executed . ” And please re-read the first paragraph of 55 .
//3. You’ve also stated elsewhere that you don’t care about being branded in a certain way, about not requiring a certificate. Again… you would be well advised to desist from assuming that my patriotism is somehow dependent on a certificate from you.//
I don’t give a damn , anymore . I did take a jab at you . And no, you don’t need a certificate from me .
//3.1. When I speak pro-Bihar & anti-mns/thakre, then I’m a patriot. When I speak pro-peace & non-violence, then I don’t come off as one? I think almostinfamous @ 058 is right… you do seem terribly confused.
Terribly confused about what ? I replied to 58 . I stick to it . The overkill I mentioned was with respect to excessive show of military aggression by Israel , last year . And almostinfamous made into a different kind of overkill , on a different subject .
// 4. There is no ideal solution. There is only a better, or more civilized/progressive if you please, solution. And capital punishment is not it. //
That is your take on it , and not mine . I will not change it till I see things differently than I am doing now . And I did say that there is no ideal solution . In 55 .
// The man is the laughing stock of the world. From rank commoners like me to historians like Romila Thapar & Ramchandra Guha, he evokes only derision. //
Why ? And How ? And those 2 are the not the only historians in this world . And from what I have learn in my short life so far , History is rarely the correct,unbiased and objective representation of the past . You read it by a left-wing historian , he kicks right-wing ass , and vice-versa .
// He tries to bring down Ambedkar, he subtly derides Gandhi. He is an out & out right-wing sympathiser. Probably on their payrolls!//
I don’t like Ambedkar support for Jinnah’s two nation theory . And he is a part of the right-wing .
// Search my blog for “shourie” for link after link about how widely derided he is! Please do it. To learn more if for nothing else!!! //
You are anti-right-wing . He is right-wing . I got it all , without even reading a word .
//@ 073: he doesn’t walk free. he serves his sentence & is set free after that. Do you remember India’s dacoits? phoolan & the others?//
That is bad . A terrorist should either go to his promised “Paradise” or languish till his times comes, in the one GoI has provided for him .
1conoclast
079
4:14 pm
Kislay,
Don’t you understand parallels my friend?
Anyway…
1. Israel is probably USA’s closest ally. When India goes down that route (& gets branded a sell-out?), we can probably talk about opening up the battle on multiple fronts: Against pak, against b’desh, against the lankans who kill innocent tamils, against malaysia fro bringing down temples etc. etc.
2. Eh? Aren’t we talking two different things? I’m asking you not to suggest that I support terrorists. And you’re back to rooting for capital punishment? Can you address the point I raised?
3. Isn’t patriotism just another form of the regionalism that you deride, only wider in scope? Try humanity. And thanks for admitting that I don’t need a certificate from you.
3.1. Please re-read the point.
4. Fair point. I will wait till you can.
On shourie: If you had bothered to read through the links I’ve presented on my blog, you wouldn’t be asking Why? And How?. Read na…
You may want to read an old post of mine on History. It begins to address some of the accusations you’ve hurled at historians who’ve devoted their entire lives to the study, research & accurate, unbiased repersentation of the past.
Guha is hardly left wing. He wades in them as nicely as he does into shourie. And no, Guha & Thapar are not the only historians in the world. There are others who share the derision. The thing about shourie is that he evokes derision not only from the left, but from the moderates, centred, and those with no avowed leanings. shourie isn’t even a historian. Thapar makes a very valid point. She says History is a far more precise science than it used to be. shourie did not qualify to be a historian, he hasn’t been trained to be one & he is obviously not unbiased. So where does that leave him? nowhere.
Ambedkar never bought into the 2 nation theory! You may want to check your facts again. As a matter of fact it is savarkar who propounded it. shourie didn’t target Ambedkar for allegedly buying into Jinnah’s 2 nation theory. he targeted him in his unreadable garbage “Worshipping False Gods”, in order to bring him down, in the vain hope of salvaging the fast depleting upper-class clout within Hinduism!
Read up my brother. It’ll sort out a lot of the cobwebs.
Understanding parallels again: India’s famed dacoits all served jail sentences. They’re all living retired lives in MP, Haryana & Punjab. Didn’t they kill 100’s of people? If jail sentences & rehabilitation are good for them, then why not for other killers? Because we’re very angry at this point? If it’s on account of our anger, then it’ll just be another hate crime. Not justice.
I understand what you feel. I have urges within me that say we should take the fight into pakistan, level the damn place & get out. It’s just that another part of my brain tells me that it’s going to be a futile exercise, because the moment we move out, there’ll be fresh anger & insurgencies & fresh attacks on us.
The only way therefore is to get rid of the anger & the hate, or whatever else is causing them to attack us. That’s the only lasting solution. Otherwise we’re all doomed to act the way we have for as long as man has lived. Until we go up in a giant fireball & are replaced by another species, like T-Rex & his cousins were.
Kislay Chandra
080
2:57 pm
@1conoclast
Well, peace then . Good discussion, we had .
1conoclast
081
3:44 pm
Kamal
082
4:05 pm
So let me see, muslims now don’t want these martyr.
That means 9 X 72 virgins will be disappointed.
No matter what muslims do they always manage to hart the feeling of other, here or in heaven.
Adnan
083
4:17 pm
Who said that, getting the virgins is not dependent on whether you get the burial or not.
yaamyn
084
5:31 am
Woah. I missed all the fun!
Plenty of good lines in there.. 2S is on a roll!
Anyhow. I’m ambiguous on this whole capital Punishment thing.
There are crimes that are worse than terrorism and rape.
Crimes that makes you think long and hard about the existence of a human morality.
Crimes like beating a shoving vegetable up a kidnapped 3 year old.. and beating her to death over several days of torture.
Crimes like cutting open a woman’s womb and setting ablaze someones family - just because it’s riots time… and the cops are on your side.
Crimes like smashing open a girls head and raping her as she lies dying.
Savagery at its worst manifestation - when there’s no HUMAN left to reform.
That’s when I root for that convict to just DIE a painful slow death.
But at other times, I wonder if it’s not the same beast within me who’s calling for death and pain? Am I also not rooting for torture and inflicting the most degrading possible punishment using his crime as my justification?
Blame it on my liberalism, but when i’m not immediately inflammed by some offending crime.. when I have the ability to THINK objectively, I feel that murdering a human is rather unjust.
It’ lets terrorists get away too easily.
It defeats the purpose by giving the terrorists exactly what they want. Publicity and Martyrdom.
I’d rather if they were given a lifetime of hard labor, that’ll knock them out of their grand self illusory worlds.