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Sep142008
The Delhi Blasts: A Secularist Questions
My family, my whole family, mom dad sis, had a narrow escape in today’s Delhi serial blasts. By ‘narrow’ I mean really really narrow. They were a few meters away from the blast site, and were AT the site from where live bombs were found minutes later.
Only I know what I felt during the time I heard about the blasts till the time my family got a three wheeler and reached home safely. At last I had a sigh of relief but today they escaped, what about tomorrow? And if not my family what about the families of those 20 that did lose their life and those 100s battling for in the hospital?
The first thought that my sister had after having a narrow escape from the blast was that “we have all been turned into insects, just waiting to be crushed anytime. There is no value of our lives, you never know when, where and how.”
A million thoughts came to mind. What exactly do these people want? I really wonder if there is anything that we could offer them so that they would stop this blood shed. Earlier we thought, okay the terror attacks on India by Islamic groups are because they want Kashmir. Some people even went to the extent of respectfully calling them freedom fighters for Kashmir and terrorists for federal India. But this Indian Mujahideen, they simply are just mindless blood thirsty psychos.
Looking at the things they said in their emails you wonder how can any group utter such non-sense.
“Within 5 minutes from now…this time with the Message of Death, dreadfully terrorising you for your sins,” the email said.” And thus our promise will be fulfilled.Inshallah” [Source: Economic Times]
What promise? What sins? What on earth are they trying to do? Are they really so naive to think they’d ever achieve anything in this manner. No matter how flawed our governance is or how weak our intelligence is do they really think they can successfully wage and win a war against an entire nation’s force? Are they that stupid?
In all the news channels this email was shown today. The opening line says, “in the name of Allah.” So do they mean their Allah told them to kill people? Kill which people? Hindu or Muslim or other religion people? Or did Allah specifically ask them to kill Indians of whatever religion? Are they going to kill Indians living in India only or NRIs too?
These Muslim religious leaders keep issuing Fatwas for all sort of reasons. Last they said, Salman Khan is not a Muslim any more and imposed a social boycott on him and his family because Salman did a Ganesh puja. They said idol worship is against Islam. Then they said Muslim women can’t use mobiles, can’t travel alone, can’t buy products from sales men etc. [Link to this crazy news]
Now why can’t these Imams issue a Fatwa against these terrorist declaring them as non Muslim on the ground that killing innocent people is against Islam. Or at least condemn the killings. Since nothing of that sort ever happens, should we then assume that killing innocent people is NOT against Islam?
Am sure the Hindutva brigade would jump at this now and say, “that’s the whole point we been trying to make for so long”. But let’s not get into that now.
This Hindutva v. Jihad is pure politics, a game of power, which has got nothing to do with the people dying. Those who are dying, whether Hindu or Muslim are neither interested in Hindutva nor in Jihad, they are just regular law abiding peaceful citizen of this country going about their life rather unaware of the dangerous religious politics their leaders are playing all over the world in the name of their religion. They just want to live their life at peace.
The only way to fight terrorism is by not being terrorised. ‘Not be terrorized’ would mean to not jump the gun and brand the next Muslim you see on the street as terrorist. Neither should we assume that every Muslim subscribe to these killings or would eventually become a jihadi.
Irrespective of what their holy book say or what their leaders may insist, no human being of sane mind would to become a killer. People really just want to live their lives. It’s always those few rotten apples that spoil the whole bunch.
That said, I really wonder what impact do groups like ‘Indian Mujahideen’ have on the average Muslim youth in India and across the world. Why don’t we ever read or hear enough from them? Not just this issue, why don’t the average Muslim speak against arbitrary diktats their religious leaders often impose.
Though Salim Khan is a welcome exception in this context. He not only openly questioned the locus standi of the Imam to issue any kind of Fatwa but also went on to say his wife being a Hindu, celebrating Ganeshotsav is in his blood. Those are some brave words from a truly secular and brave Indian Muslim. Mr Khan said,
“What is the locus standi of these people? Who are they to question people’s religious beliefs? Why don’t they issue such a ‘fatwa’ against terrorists and terrorism, which is un-Islamic? The clerics are talking nonsense,” he thundered before a television channel on the evening of September 12. [Source: Sify News]
But besides that, why ain’t their enough voices against such high degree of gender discrimination I juts mentioned above? Don’t the educated Muslim men see the craziness behind such mindset? Can’t they be vocal about it? I would really need some answers to these questions without which it really gets difficult for a secularist to defend them when another counter-terrorism group attacks another bunch of innocent people as a natural reaction to terrorism.
Even keeping the religion completely aside, if we could look at these attacks purely as law and order problem; lack of intelligence; lack of ground level security measures issue, we would achieve a lot. I mean the funniest things that I notice in such times are 1) The High Alerts in each city 2) Politician’s condemnation pouring in from all sides 3) and the speculation over the intensity of the bombs. That’s all we do and all we achieve after those long hours of “breaking news” telecast. But what happens after that? Nothing.
Every time a Modi would say we need more stringent laws to tackle terrorism. But what can law do when our ground level policing is not effective. We don’t have enough smart and active police keeping a daily vigil at various nook and corner of the city. Instead we have pan chewing pot bellied yawning police men who are busy collecting bribes from petty criminals.
You have a terrorist group carrying on its illegal activity in a certain city for months together before the actual blast but not one local police constable would suspect a thing. They must be visiting the spots couple of times to design their attack, they must be buying raw materials from some place to make these bombs, they must be using cell phones to communicate. Can’t we have intelligence which could nab these culprits at such sources?
There is no answer why our security is so flawed that we never ever get a clue before the attacks take place. So many blasts in the last couple of years but how many arrests? How many cases solved? How many proven guilty beyond doubt?
Another fashionable thing to do after such blast is to blame media for their coverage style. Today, they frowned upon CNN IBN’s showing the life less body of a woman lying on the pavement over and over again. They said, “media only wants to show gory pictures exaggerating things. The city is calm, media is making it look like a war situation.”
Not showing the gory picture wouldn’t help anything you know. It’s not media’s problem that we feel uncomfortable to see the gory picture. Moreover even if one person is dead that is a serious matter, why blame the media? That’s a real body lying there, not a fake body that media has thrown in to create sensation.
Media also got blamed for giving extreme coverage to the email from Indian Mujahideen. Logic? That ‘coverage’ is exactly what the terrorist want so the media is in a serving their purpose. Yes, that may be true but that doesn’t mean Media would keep quiet about the emails. The people of this nation ought to know everything that is there to be known. Controlled information is not going to help.
Yet another rhetoric is “the people of blah blah city has shown that they cannot be cowed down by terror activities. Life gets back in track with full spirit.” My sister called me from the blast site. She said, “People ain’t panicking here. Those who were at bus stops are still waiting for their buses, not everybody can afford an auto even on a crisis day. Dad still tried to bargain with the auto guy.”
So the question is-this ‘not panicking’ is a sign of what? Is it ’strength’ or ’surrender’? or is it Apathy? Or are we getting immune to terror attacks?
Whatever it is, it is not a good sign that every time we fall, we get up, get going only to fall again. We must strike back and show these criminals their place. They have dared us enough. This is no less than an attack on our sovereignty. When will we ever say enough is enough?
The views expressed in this post are those of the writer and are not necessarily endorsed by Mutiny.in
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Natarajan
001
2:13 pm
Today, the bus had stopped close to a petrol bunk and I actually imagined what would happen if a bomb were to explode???
This had never happened before and You are right when you say “it is not a good sign that every time we fall, we get up, get going only to fall again”
Political parties are good only playing their blame games. Soon this will pass before another “breaking news” and another blasts! This is a big mess we have got into! God save our nation!
Swati. c
002
4:39 pm
You turn the other cheek , then the other and …and when your cheeks can’t take it anymore, you slap right back. THAT is what Bal Thackray was talking about.
What is the punishment for MURDER and MAYHEM in ISLAM?
The modern mullah
003
7:31 pm
I think mutiny authors are the dumbest bunch of morons I have ever met. After every bomb blast we have a new post saying “what do these terrorists want??”, “why do they do this ?” etc. Yet the terrorists have been very clear on what they want, SIMI has a crisply defined philosophy and slogan: (from wiki)
“Its slogan is “Allah is our Lord, Qur’an is our constitution, Muhammad is our leader, Jihad is our way and Shahadah is our desire”"
“Their ideology stands accused by certain watchdog organisations as diametrically opposed to all “un-Islamic” streams of thought, including Hinduism and a secular government as practiced in India. They are also against Western values [1]. Among its various objectives, SIMI aims to counter what it believes is the increasing moral degeneration, sexual anarchy in the Indian society as also the ‘insensitiveness’ of a ‘decadent’ west. SIMI maintains that the concepts of secularism, democracy and nationalism, keystones of the Indian Constitution, are antithetical to Islam.[5] They aim to restore the supremacy of Islam through the resurrection of the Khilafat, emphasis on the Muslim Ummah and the waging of Jihad [1].”
There you go, their demands are quite simple, no Kashmir or politics here. They want quran as constitution and no democracy or secularism. Do it and they’ll stop their jihad. I think India is half way there, we already have Hindus being suppressed in the name of tolerance.
Their second demand is a little tough to fulfill. To end Western decadence they need to take on a country called the USA, which luckily for humanity is not a third rate country like India, when it comes to fighting religious terror.
the ultra-modern mullah
004
9:20 pm
i wonder if this post was just meant to show that people who go about calling modi names in Mutiny can also point a finger at islamist terrorism.
we all love gandhi’s idea of peace. but th reality is this, you have to CRUSH terrorism by force, and thats when we will stop having blasts. i dunno if modi can really do it when he challenges the govt saying he can, but one thing is clear, u cannot win this war with ‘peace’, u have to fight it, give them back the way they kill us. sounds dissapointing? deal with it.
the ultra-modern mullah
005
9:25 pm
oh yeh, why muslims face the brunt of a few ‘terrorists’ among them is thay dont speak enough against it. they dont support it, but they dont condemn it either. it is wrong that the entire community is blamed, but it is by condemning it that they can slove tat problem. and, it is unfair that hindus dont face the brunt when idiots in the rss burn churches.
Achmed
006
9:37 pm
@MM
I have begin to think you are a bot.
Naveen
007
10:27 pm
Sanjukta,
I’m happy that your family was unharmed but so many others weren’t lucky enough. My condolences to their families and may them RIP.
I was in a Gurgaon multiplex at the time of the blasts, watching “A Wednesday”. Talk about coincidence in the themes. The utter helplessness felt by Naseeruddin Shah in that movie is what a common man is feeling today. My parents in B’lore were frantic as they couldn’t reach my mobile due to congested networks and they know that I go to Delhi and C.P. some weekends. There’s nothing much to do in Gurgaon except going to malls on weekends. There is a high probability that I might become a victim next if Gurgaon is attacked. I’m seriously thinking of taking out a terrorism insurance cover in my name:(
My serious worry is that its the educated Muslim whose getting involved in terrorism. Its not poor Muslims but people who’ve been a part of the mainstream education system and who’ve a stake in maintaining it. Already Muslims face a backlash in finding homes because the trust factor has been eroded. If we lose even these educated guys, where do we go?
All these grievances are just a mask - Kashmir, Gujarat, Ayodhya - good recruitment messages to attract the foot soldiers. Will any of these blasts avenge the dead in the riots?
yaamyn
008
10:42 pm
I have to say I disagree with quite a few of your assertions, Sanjukta.
By Allah’s grace, you and your family have been safe. Now, coming to your assertions:
1) The Islamic leaders of India (and by that, I don’t mean SIMI) - the deobandi clerics - have in fact ALREADY issued a fatwa, which in no uncertain terms, and with relevant quotes from ‘their holy book’, the Qur’an, have condemned all forms of terrorism as Unislamic.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4045862.ece
2) It is completely untrue that the Muslim citizens have NOT spoken out against terrorism. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims do - and in public, people like Javed Akhtar have been very, very vocal about it. Yet, it’s also true that it doesn’t make for very exciting news coverage. I’ve been on hundreds of internet forums, and gone through piles and piles of communal shit, but I’m yet to see ONE single Muslim supporting these self-proclaimed jehadis. So I request you to kindly avoid labeling these people ‘Muslims’.
3) It’s abhorrent, and highly offensive that a ‘Muslim’ would think of perpetrating such an act in the holy month of Ramadan. It’s unthinkable.
4) You have to realize that no matter how many fatwas are issued against terrorism, or how many Narendra Modis take the golden oppportunity to spew venom - to be ‘tough on terrorism’.. it doesn’t matter to the terrorists.
To tackle terrorism, you don’t need words.. you need effective policing and intelligence gathering. The ’solutions’ that Modi offers is to just allow the police easier methods to cover up their ineptitude.
You said rightly that it’s time to show the criminals their place.. however posts like these - where you’re intentionally or unintentionally insinuating against an entire community (I felt so, being a Muslim myself) will only strengthen the terrorists agenda.. and further alienate the Muslim Indians, young and old.
It’s easy to get carried away in the heat of the moment. Emotional outbursts have a greater effect than logical reasoning, yet it’s the latter we must pursue.
Farhan
009
11:39 pm
Sanjukta people like u perhaps dont understand the heart beats of the lakhs of Indian Mulsims wether Cleric, Leaders or ordinary Muslims, we all badly hurt on Delhi blasts. we wonder who did these? how can a Muslim perpetrate all these in teh month of Ramdan. A simple letter claiming the responsiblity of blasts or a name Indian Mujahidin do not subscibe Muslims relation with the blasts. Why dont we try explore the other side political game. Believe me the recent death of two Bajrang Dal activists in Kanpur and previous incidents in Nanded call us to invstigate the role of Hindu terrorists. Election is nearing why do we ruled out plitical angle when BJP is raising all sorts of communal issues. Bajrangis killed so amny christain in Orissa. For GOD sake we should jointly srearch who the real Indian Mujahidin is?
2S
010
1:18 am
@Yaamyn
Btw, While I do NOT agree entirely with the views of this post, I don’t think her comments were directed at the average Muslim, and I’m surprised to know you thought so that way. I do agree with you that certain Muslim leaders and citizens have condemned the attacks.
And for the record, Javed Akhtar is an Atheist.
so?
011
1:43 am
Javed Akhtar is an atheist. So?
sanjay
012
3:29 am
If you actually read Koran and read the ayats about what to do with non-believers, you will come to the conclusion that only the Taliban are the real Muslims. The rest are actually not Muslim enough. Jihad against the rest of humanity is going on evern since Arab armies stomed out of Arabia to capture Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Spain, Afghanistan and India. it is nothing new. The Jihad in India or in US is a mere continuation of this historical process inititated by Muslims over other civilisations. People who are suprised by these bombings have not read history.
Swati. c
013
9:33 am
Well when one of the few relics of the religion of PEACE is a SWORD, there isn’t much left to be said, is there?
Swati. c
014
9:36 am
By Allah’s grace, you and your family have been safe.
..
What would be the logical opposite of this statement for the families of the victims?
2S
015
12:16 pm
@So
You really *should* read the thread.
Ketan
016
12:32 pm
It is really sad that we have come to such times… actually wondering what would happen if a blast were to occur…
Muslim Religious leaders have infact issued Fatwas and condemned Terrorists and their activities, but to what effect?
Slowly and slowly we are turning into pre programmed bots, directed to spew hate and venom at a certain sect.
All these blasts cannnot have happned without internal support. There has to be a support structure in place to sustain these so called Jihadis..and this support structure isnt necessarily out of pur existing political system.
Achmed
017
1:06 pm
Sanjukta / Chacko / Mutiny
Congratulations you have passed the ultimate test of impartiality. After series of backlash from the hindutva brigade for being biased against hindus, the pseudo secular et all… this author is now being blamed by the muslim for labelling them or hurting their whole clam.
Keep up the good work
@Farhan, Yaamyn
You guys didn’t read this para?
The only way to fight terrorism is by not being terrorised. ‘Not be terrorized’ would mean to not jump the gun and brand the next Muslim you see on the street as terrorist. Neither should we assume that every Muslim subscribe to these killings or would eventually become a jihadi
How?
018
1:23 pm
Achmed,
How do you suggest we tell the difference between moderate, ordinary, peaceful Muslims ( we know they exist,yes) and Muslims with terrorist leanings? How do we know who to be afraid of? Or do you suggest we all become immune, careless and continue to behave normally as if nothing has happened?
Please elaborate.
so?
019
1:48 pm
I read the thread, 2S.
He is an athiest, so? I am just trying to get clear as to what u r trying to get at. I am not as brainy as u, seriously.
1conoclast
020
3:47 pm
Swati,
Good question. Murder or “mischief in the land” is punishable by death in the Quran, if I’m not mistaken. Punish the terrorists by all means. I’ll join you. Don’t punish the one’s who haven’t done anything though.
And Sanju,
To answer your question, it’s not that the secular Muslims aren’t raising their voices. Someone doesn’t seem to be covering them enough…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Sunday_Specials/When_Pg_3_met_the_Ulema/articleshow/3201866.cms
Notice the semi-derogatory heading of the article?
1conoclast
021
4:02 pm
Farhan,
I agree with you on the elections angle.
harini calamur
022
4:37 pm
hi
am glad for your narrow escape.
Muslim religious leaders across the country have issued fatwas against terror. But, someone needs to tell the terrorist.
And, anyone who breaks the basic tenets of religion - killing of innocents - is anyway someone who doesn’t belong to the religion.
many muslims - i won’t label them as secularist or athiest or believers, because i don’t use labels for Hindus, don’t see any reason to use them for anyone else - have protested - but the media does not cover their protest.
possilby a solution is a strong anti-terror law, or even a national anti terrorist wing. Religion, of course plays a strong role — but, what do you do with people who don’t want to follow any rules..
Swati
023
4:56 pm
I am fast losing the patience and capacity to differentiate between the two, Icon. This isn’t a joke.
A few more incidents like this and I ( and many others like me who’ve tried hard not to be influenced by what they see and hear and experience) might just buy the saffron tinted glasses you earlier thought I wore.
contentious
024
6:02 pm
Why is that inspite repeated rationalization , the “non -Hindutvi indoctrinated” hindus are losing faith in the inculpability of a community as a whole.
Can someone answer that PLEASE! SERIOUSLY!!!!
(Some of the comments on Salman’s thread make me squirm)
1conoclast
025
7:01 pm
Harini,
I tried expressing that sentiment here in an earlier post, but you know what happened to that…
Swati…
That sentiment works both ways. You want all out war, you’ll get it. Don’t make the mistake of asking for it. We’re anyway suffering too much as a nation without you & I getting into an irresponsible comment-slinging match.
Swati
026
7:12 pm
I didn’t ask for war. Where did you read THAT? I ask for the peace Islam has always promised and failed to deliver. I personally know what has happened has nothing to do with Islam, but say that to the terrorists and to those who know only what they’re told. There is no comment slinging, I’ve merely repeated what I said in the other thread. We need to be more responsible. Our posts are read by people of all kinds and tendencies.
Irresponsible comments against Hindus have been made for eons, nothing seems to have changed with the coming of many religions since. Things are just getting worse.
You want us to believe the terrorists are not Muslim, they want us to believe they are.
You have claimed that yours is the fastest growing religion…and wondered why that makes the rest of the world uncomfortable. I hope you got your answer on Sunday.
With so many educated ( academically) and well to do Muslims taking to violence, we have no way of knowing who to trust. Will you kindly tell us how to differentiate between the guilty and innocent? This is a genuine question. Please reply.
1conoclast
027
7:14 pm
conti…
Because they’re not using rationalization. Because they’re listening (& have been listening) to the wrong people talk for years now, and now they’re beginning to get influenced. I don’t know how it escapes your notice that there has been a concerted effort to paint the community as evil.
It’s the sangh parivar at work in schools, in shakhas, in casual conversations, in open meetings, in hate CD’s, from podiums in elections speeches.
They’ve been spewing hate & people have begun to buy it now.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Indian Mujahideen turns out to be either a front for the sangh or financed by them or something.
Why is it so difficult to imagine that a bunch of opportunistic, extremist politicians are above board & why is it so easy to imagine that an entire community is not?
1conoclast
028
7:28 pm
Swati,
Dr. murli manohar joshi is educate (academically). So is arun jaitley. So is shourie. They still stand by the offspring of India’s original militant organization.
Academics is not guarantee.
Tolerance & understanding is.
I did’t claim anything as my religion. I didn’t get any answers on Sunday. I’ve been getting answers from Orissa for the past month. And Gujarat before that. And Ayodhya & Bombay before that.
Who should I be uncomfortable with sweetheart?
1conoclast
029
8:45 pm
response to above joker:
jagoindia,
I think a study of Islam should be made compulsory! For rss raised bigots like you to learn the truth about it.
Any religion only wants peace for it’s people & others. If you want to buy the misrepresentations that the sangh parivar has raised you on, it’s up to you; but if you really want to know the truth, do study their religion. And yours. Properly.
Thank God for people like Samyukta. They kind of maintain the balance that would’ve been horribly upset if we only had you.
sanjay
030
9:33 pm
The only peace Islam wants to establish is the peace of the graveyard.
sanjay
031
9:35 pm
“Any religion only wants peace for it’s people & others.”
Are you smoking something? islam means submission, not peace. If islam wants peace for others, then why would non-believers burn in hell?
contentious
032
9:52 pm
1con, you have addressed my question incorrectly and inadequately!
I was talking about those Hindus who are far removed from influences of Sangh parivar , their propaganda machinery and their politics.
They understand that Islam means submission to the will God but yet see them submitting to terrible violence in the name of Allah.
They know that an entire community cannot be collectively held responsible for extreme acts of some of its “faithfuls(?)”, but have encountered sympathisers within, for these causes.
They know that like the other communities the ordinary Muslim only wants to live his/her life in peace and dignity but wonder if a call for religious zealousness will transmute them into raging radicals.
They hope that it will not ever happen but fear that India may fall victim to a call for Islamization.
They are aware of a history of aggression and prevelant religious fanatism seen around the world but dont see sufficient non-alignment within.
They concede that there are opportunist politicians/troublemongers of all hues within but dont see the reciprocity on the other side.
They expect an 1con to replace the Muslim with a Hindu above, flip the argument around starting another round of who is the progenitor of this feeling of insecurity but there will be no consensus.
They are as weary as the rest but cant figure the way out of this communal morass.
They just want PEACE!
Swati
033
10:18 pm
What happened in Orissa, etc were answers, yes…to questions that are being posed against Hinduism for a long time. Am glad you are paying attention. I guess more answers are due. Isn’t that what Bal Thackray was saying?
Do you see that this is a cycle? The answers have to come from within. As expected, you will try and evade the issue at hand by pointing elsewhere.
Nobody wants violence, but that is what everybody is getting…the average, moderate Muslim and the average, moderate Hindu.
yaamyn
034
10:42 pm
@ swati c, who doesn’t know the difference between the ‘guilty’ and the ‘innocent’… and is actually the first person who understood Bal-T’s wonderful logic. (congratulatoins for that, btw. and thanks, I would never have guessed the simple, lucid logic behind his apparently misleading statements.)
You don’t have to go through the motions of pretending not to have ’saffron tinted glasses’ swati.. cuz I don’t think anyone cares if you do. You’ve given yourself away long ago.
I knew that statement “By Allah’s grace..’ would catch the eye. It did.. and you sounded disturbed. I could have said God.. but I chose to make the statement as Muslim - cuz that’s what my opinion counts for here, doesn’t it swati?
Btw, by Allah’s grace.. even I escaped a bomb blast here in Bangalore (4 actually) by a delay of about 3 minutes. Do you want a logical opposite to that statement?
I don’t know what a ’symbol’ has to do with a religion. To me a sword is about almost as violent as a Trishul, a ‘Sudarshan Chakra’, or even a roman torture device called a Crucifix.
Doesn’t leave much to say, does it?
But gives you away, once again.
Here’s something interesting.. You asked ‘what’s the punishment in Islam for murder and mayhem.. knowing full well what is.
Could you kindly find out what the punishment is in Hinduism? Humor me.
Islam didn’t promise YOU anything, much less fail to deliver you any. If only you applied your exacting standards of Islam on every other religion, including your own.
yaamyn
035
10:50 pm
@ sanjay, who’’s truly an expert in Islam and other major world religions.
Islam means ’submission’ to the wlll of God, as contentious put it here. Submitting to someone’s will is also the same as making peace. I don’t know why you would think otherwise.
You want us to ask the jew and the red indians what Islam and Christianity are? Why?
You obviously don’t find Islam or Christianity very appealing - cuz as far as I know, your knowledge of Islam is limited to those ‘few ayat’ by which you conclude that the only true Muslims are the Taliban.
Good for you.
Why did the Pandavas defeatl the Kauravas? Why did Ram kill Ravana? Why did Hanuman burn Lanka……? ? ?
rig
036
10:57 pm
1con,
the point is simple. u r one-sided like the hindutvis u blame, but why ur stand would look more noble is that it is the hindutvis who are getting away with wat they are doing, and muslims always dont. its a cycle, there are creeps in every religion. u think u are being reasonable by saying “oh come on jus dont blame the muslims for everything, hindus too are responsible” which is right, but u do so by sympathising with the muslims and criminalising the hindus, which makes u one among the ppl u hate, just of a different kind though. dont keep telling us u r a secularist and that u are from mixed parents, u still are biased.
You too are a part of the vicious circle the country is suffering from, because even if u speak for the people who are actually hurt, u do it by slinging mud on the others. it never works, never will. and u tell us u believe in gandhi.
yaamyn
037
11:00 pm
@contentious:
Good question. I think it answers itself.
The answer is FEAR.
I don’t know how many Indians - unless they live under a rock on the other side of the Himalayas - are ‘far from the influences’ of the Sangh Parivar.
How many Indians are free from the memories of the Babri Masid demolition.. the rath yatras.. the election propaganda.. the communal riots in every part of the country.. Gujarat.. I don’t think anybody’s ‘far from the influence’. It’s an honest thought.
You might mean the liberal Hindu.. but show me ONE person who’s free from fear? Fear psychosis and propaganda are all that keeps the ‘Sangh Parivar’ going.. It’s the license with which the Bajrang Dal can orchestrate premediated murder.. and get away with it.
The fear may not have real grounds.. but since when has fear ever been based on something which you knew? It’s always a fear of the unkown.. fear of the dark, fear of ghosts, fear of the future, fear of death.. it’s this anxiety they work on. It’s human nature.
unfortunately, mistrust and fear is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more your mistrust someone, the less likely you’re to find common grounds and unity. Same goes for Hindus and Muslims in India.
Swati
038
11:05 pm
I must admit I have no idea what the punishment in Hinduism for murder is. I have never claimed to be an expert on Hinduism or an ardent follower of the religion.
Those symbols you mention are from Hindu Mythology and assosiated with certain ‘GOD’s and represent certain divine powers … they’re not meant for use by human messengers of God…as I’m sure you already know.
There is nothing to give away. I still stand by my old claim that I understand that the Qoran advocates peace. How you want to see me is of no importance to me.
If you’ve read my other posts…since you’ve been so kind as to read this one and also reply very kindly….you’ll find that I’ve admitted more than once that no religion has yielded perfect results…and that includes Hinduism. There are violent Hindus, there are manipulative Hindus, there are conniving Hindus, there are murderers, politicians, liars, rapists, hypocrites…all Hindu. And there are all those in other religions too.
But what is the issue at hand here?
yaamyn
039
11:10 pm
@rig: -
I think you miss hte point. It’s not about the Muslim or the HIndu.. it’s about the crime.
I have browsed through dozens and dozens of INternet forums, such as this one. I have yet to meet a single- yes ONE Muslim - who will justify or condone the acts that are blamed on the Islamists.
But I DO see several dozens of scores of hindutvis openly praising and condoning and even justifying violent behavior. Why this evening, the BJP CM of Karnataka.. in response to a large scale attack on Christians on a Sunday morning, was on the news, limply saying that ‘conversions were taking place..’.
That’s the CM talking, mind you.
I have yet to see one instance of a Muslim - or any INdian - making fun of Ram or lampooning and Hindu God in public - and getting away with it. But I’ve seen very frustrated and derogatory and downright offensive abuses hurled at the Muslim Prophet.
The difference is that - all these violent ‘Muslim’ outfits are banned, but the ‘Hindu’ groups have a large public presence, and great media exposure and publicly carry out the same crimes.
Is that, then. Being biased? Nobody’s talking about religoin here.. it’s about the extremists and equality before law.
Swati
040
11:12 pm
V well put Rig.
Offence is the best form of defence.
rig
041
11:18 pm
i dont think u got my point either, yaamn.
i was pointing out to 1con simply this, dont imply that this attack might not have been a muslim one and that it could have been the RSS or BJP in disguise. and dont take this oppurtunity to sling more mud at the hindutvis.
call me ’swayed away by the hypocritic media’ but i do think that it was an attack by a muslim organization, and that has to be accepted.
i am not talking abt religion or equality before law. i am talking abt calling a spade a spade if u go abt professing that.
and yes, i did write in my prev post, why 1con’s stand sounds good is cos hindutvis get away with it. muslims dont. it is sad, but then that dos not mean we start implying things like “mabbe this attack was by rss-bjp or india’s enemies”…..
yaamyn
042
11:35 pm
@rig: -
that’s 1con’s point of view. I think you ought to allow him that. If he thinks it could be an election gimmick, why not?
It might also be of significance that the Bajrang Dal have been caught making bombs - which resulted in the death of at least 4 of their own cadres over two separate days. What’ do they do with their bombs?
Their levels of sophisticated organization is apparent with the co-oinidated attacks over three different cities in Karnataka attacking multiple churches and Christians in each place. Openly.
So I wouldn’t mind giving 1con the benefit of doubt..
@swati.c,
I’m aware that you’re not an expert on Hinduism… nor do you know about the punishment in Hinduism or Judaism. But I HAVE taken the trouble to find out, and I assure you its not pretty.
I have vowed never to quote any sacred text to ‘prove’ that they’re violent - because i do respect this little institution called ‘faith’ and ‘belief’. I stick by that stand.. however, you’re free to do your own research, for you seem to pass a lot of comments on Islam, without bothering to find where you stand yourself.
Your pretensions to fairness is belied by the simple fact that you claim ‘Islam’ has failed to deliver. When and How has ‘Islam’ failed to deliver?
By your yardstick, Hinduism has failed to deliver even more.. it being a tolerant and accepting system… but with the Bajrangis on a mission to burn Christians and spew venom on Muslims. i’m not too sure.
Why don’t you apply Bal-T’s logic to the others too? The islamists would love to have their stands so beautifully justified!
rig
043
11:54 pm
yeah rite, see what a hypcrite u are yaamyn?? anyways, expected nothing less from you.
are we all not here to hit out on each others opinions? u do it, 1con does it, thats wat i was doing. at least i am not saying i have a noble cause….!
haha, benefit of doubt. nice joke… it is the same problem u have with acceptace u have that everyone has. they lash out, u cant. if u can you will. now dont argue abt tat, gimme the benefit of doubt.
yaamyn
044
12:02 am
of course not.
Why is that hypocrisy? I must admit i know very little about who’s behind the blasts. It could easily be the Islamists for all I know.
You think it’s them, I think it’s quite likely too. But what’s to say we’re right?
rig
045
12:25 am
Exactly, so why take this chance to say the sanghies or the politicians mite have done this? It is quite obvious the first blame will come on the Indian Mujahideen cos of that mail. Now dont say the media is faulty.
RSS burns churches, and does it openly. those idiots think thats wat gives the more mileage. They also shud be burned alive, but I dont think anyone but a radical islamist organization cud have done this
sanjay
046
12:36 am
“Islam means ’submission’ to the wlll of God, as contentious put it here. Submitting to someone’s will is also the same as making peace. I don’t know why you would think otherwise”
Submission to the will of others results in peace? Of course it does. That is how the slave-master relationship or conquered-conqueror relationship works. “Submit to our Allah or off with your head” is how most of you were made Muslims by Afghans and Turks who invaded India.
Swati
047
7:39 am
I do not defend the ‘Bajrangis’ or even BAL-T…but while you so vociferously deny that those who indulge in this kind of terrorism can be MUSLIMS, you also rush to ask why SIMI etc - MUSLIM groups- are banned and HINDU groups are not.
George Fernandi’s will be questioned for being a Christian AND Indian the day he begins ‘fighting till the last breath for HIS land’…..just like Raj Thackray was being rudiculed and questioned for trying to claim Marathi land for himself.
I merely stated that Gujrat, Orissa, Bal-T’s speech etc were answers…wrong answers but answers nevertheless. Hindus might punish but will never disown those who do wrong…or rush to announce new entrants.
Please do tell me what the punishment in Hinduism is…because in my limited knowledge, we merely do our karma ( good or bad) and no authority is given to humans to judge or punish.
While I would never deny that RSS etc are groups of HINDUS, you would deny that some terrorist groups are MUSLIM because TERRORISM is against ISLAM…but you’d want to know why they are banned and the Hindu groups are not. Why?
Swati
048
7:52 am
Yaamyn,
Without meaning to offend and I admit that there are Hindus who’re resorting to terrorism also…now…
We’re talking of followers here who mostly converted for trade, polygamy, material incentives, etc….what is the point in allowing them entry and then questioning their faith and disowning them when they misbehave. Hinduism atleast has to own up to the mistakes of its followers. It cannot turn its back when a follower strays.
How does Islam work? People can’t quit it yet other Muslims can wash their hands off those they don’t agree with? Can’t you guys own up to the mistakes of those you welcome so warmly into your fold? Why do you wash your hands off them? Why don’t you take them under your wings and teach them the basics of the religion? Why is this working backwards?
Why are LEADING organisations having to scream in retrospect and announce that ISLAM does not teach what these people have learnt? Who taught them what they learnt - Hindus?
Must it not begin at the beginning? Is this not what I’ve been saying from the start?
How about saying YES, these are misled MUSLIMS and we’ll work to bring them to the right path instead of taking the easy way out. Yaamyn, Hindus and Christians and Buddhists cannot teach them, they’ll see us as enemies. So who has to bell the cat?
Swati
049
8:34 am
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0308/6.html
Just another perspective. I don’t know her personally.
Swati
050
9:15 am
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/02/darul_uloom_deoband_termed_ter.php
I request you to read the whole thing and give us your unbiased comments, Yaamyn. Thanks.
contentious
051
9:27 am
Thanks for the 2 above links,swati.
It is commendable that the Darul Uloom, Deoband denounced terrorism and declared it was an unislamic.
But what would strike any casual reader is that there is no specific mention of the those within the faith that perpetuate violence and acts of terror against the innocents. IMHO that would have made this declaration an unequivocal denunciation of all terrorism irrespective of the motivations and belief systems
yaamyn
052
4:19 pm
Swati, you assume too much.
SIMI was not just ‘ridiculed’.. it was banned. Life would be so much fairer, if we could just ridicule SIMI everytime they operated in public.. neh?
You still don’t seem to get my point about religious extremism. Think it was Tagore who once said.. ‘bigotry is the hand which seeks to protect the truth.. with a grip that kills it’.
You don’t need to disown anybody. But I have my own viewpoints… and they’re not very favorable when it comes to extremists - cutting across religious lines. For me they’re all the same.
And I didn’t allow anyone into my religion. I’m not God.
Religion is personal. Extremism is not. My faith in God never affected anybody else.. but extremism does.
When they intrude into my territory, I have full right to condemn and respond to them. If I don’t agree with their version of Islam, I’m within my rights to say so. If you think the RSS represents Hinduism, fine with me. To each his viewpoint.
When I called them ‘MUSLIM’ groups.. i’m calling them by the reason for which they’re banned - and the same reason for which a Bajrang Dal is NOT banned. It’s simple. I don’t imagine any other reason.
And for the record ‘I don’t warmly welcome’ anyone into ‘my fold’. You stil have trouble coming to terms with Islams rapid spread.. learn to deal with it.
I would be washing ‘my hands off’ if only I were involved. I’m not.
1conoclast
053
4:39 pm
sanjay…
It’s your soul I’m smoking man. You’re smoked, now go!
Islam is a religion not just a word. You are describing the word, I am talking about the teachings of the religion. Of which you obviously don’t know much.
SANJUKTA / Chacko,
Comment # 35 is hindutva propaganda from sanjay again. Can you please delete the comment so that innocent readers of this blog do not get corrupted?
conti…
Every sane unbiased Indian wants PEACE…! The sooner everyone accepts that the better it is.
Yaamyn,
Good question to swati. Did you get an answer yet?
rig,
SURE I’m biased!!! Against the hindutvis, NOT against the Hindus! I am half-Hindu! I can’t look at my aunts, uncles & cousins & tell them that I believe that they’re all perpetrators of violence! Nor can I tell my best friends, all Hindus by the way, that I hold them responsible for the backlash that we’re seeing now!
Nor can I tell my wife, again a Hindu, that it is because of her & her family that Muslims are looked upon with suspiscion in India.
WTF is your point you imbecile? I’m proud to be biased against the hindutvis. I think anyone who is not is a liability!
You maybe right totally. I believe that the IM is behind the blasts. Who’s behind them man?
sanjay…
Yaamyn who is from Maldives had no Afghan-Turk invaders forcibly converting his ancestors.
I am half-Shia, Syed at that. We descended straight from the Prophet’s family, no conversions anywhere along the way.
See how little you know about Muslims in India? Still you keep on talking…?
conti…
TYPICAL of you to continue to expect 110% perfection from the poor Muslims even when they do something good. They get together to publicly criticize terrorism, yet you’re not satisfied.
You want to NITPICK at what else they could’ve done & in the process demean & dilut the efforts they’re making!
SO MANY expectations from the Muslims in India, while as Yaamyn points out the bajrang dal can roam free? Why doesn’t anyone question them? Why doesn’t someone nitpick with the sangh parivar & the likes of modi & advani?
So called bloody Indian!!!
yaamyn
054
4:45 pm
As for the HVK link that you gave.. which proudly proclaims to ’spread Hindutva’.. It’s not my favorite source.
Anyways, responding to that - I don’t know WHY there’s a problem with it.
DO you want the Deoband to condemn only Muslim terrorists? When it says Islam condemns and forbids terrorism… what more do you want from it? You want them to release a database of all known terrorists and condemn them each by name and addess?
I think it was a pretty straightforward, sweeping statement. THe writer seems worried that it doesn’t mention ‘islamic terrorism’.
Hypocrisy is all I see.
Here’s another link, by a fatwa by yet another group.
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/FatwaAgainstTerrorism.aspx
and yet another
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2004News/Press/PressDetail.asp?cIndex=217
Both are unequivocal condemnations of terror.
But you HAVE to find something wrong with it. You just cannot accept that there’s no sanction for mindless violence in Islam. Its beyond ur grasp to accept it, and you can’t go to sleep without the satisfaction that Islam and Muslims are to blame for all the violence. And frankly, I have no wish to convince you otherwise either.
You’re free to live in your own narrow thoughts.
1conoclast
055
4:49 pm
PS: swati,
Now that you’re asking questions, you’ll start to get some answers. You’re on the path to enlightenment. Question & Cogitate. Pick a nice Banyan Tree (& I don’t mean this sarcastically) & meditate over the questions you’ve asked. The answers will begin to come slowly.
Swati
056
4:55 pm
//If you think the RSS represents Hinduism, fine with me. //
Is THAT what I said? tsk tsk
//SIMI was not just ‘ridiculed’.. it was banned. Life would be so much fairer, if we could just ridicule SIMI everytime they operated in public.. neh?//
You think? OK.
//You stil have trouble coming to terms with Islams rapid spread.. //
I don’t see ‘Islam’ spreading rapidly, I won’t pertend I do like you want to pretend RSS represents Hindus….so no trouble with ‘Islam’ here.
//You still don’t seem to get my point about religious extremism. //
U’re right, I don’t. Actually in a ( not really) lighter/similar vein , I wonder why people who’re so excited about so many countries turning completely ISLAMIC for various reasons ( excluding the basic philosophy of Islam ofcourse) would mind if ONE poor country turns completely HINDU.
Extremism, anyone????
Utopian Thots
057
4:55 pm
yaamyn,
Don’t agree to the view that Hindu gods are not lampooned by the Musloms in public in India-have been witness to eight year old muslim kids spitting & jumping on Ganesh idols that have been washed ashore post immersion. Their parents just stood there and smiled. Trust me when I say, I wanted to beat the hell out of them at that moment-but I went over and lectured them on
how you should respect all god (not too sure how much effect it had)
Swati
But that doesnt make me subscribe to the view that all Muslims hate Hindus. Violence is no means to of putting an end to this. Even in Mahbharta, Pandavas lost a lot for the victory they gained.
Politicians & Terrorists have no relegion or community-they just want to spread mayhem. They feed on each other and us.
Swati
058
4:58 pm
Ut,
I don’t think all Muslims hate Hindus or vice versa. Don’t read what is not there at all..even between lines.
Swati
059
4:59 pm
Hehe, Icon, why don’t you find a pillar to throw stones on, maybe the Satan in us all will run away? Lets not go there, shall we?
Utopian Thots
060
5:02 pm
swati,
with all the statements that you make- I dont need to read between the lines. its all there in black and white
Swati
061
5:04 pm
Really, UT? Then I must be really bad at expressing myself. I apologise because that is never what I meant to imply.
contentious
062
5:18 pm
Aww 1con you misunderstand me!
Yes TYPICALLY I am a perfectionist (try hard, though not always successful
) and expect others to also emulate.
Loopholes are tricky so was just pointing out one in the best interests of the organisation/community ….dont want some more to nitpick do we
p.s.: last i read Darul Uloom was far from “poor”
PEACE!
Swati
063
5:23 pm
Yaamyn,
I’m still sincerely waiting for your comments on Darul Uloom’s declaration against terrorism..and Tavleen Singh’s take on it. Thanks.
Adnan
064
7:11 pm
Allah ka shukr hai that your family is safe.
But, at least, educated people shouldn’t talk in these terms. Terrorism is not just anti-Hindu, it is also anti-Muslim and anti-human. Not just Hindust, but Muslims also die.
If you need Muslims to ’stage’ protests, there are enough. Of course, they don’t do it well. Muslims lack PR skills and when they sit on dharna, neither the journos come nor they get reported. Umpteen times I post these photos on my blog.
On every issue, Muslim is asked to come clean. Even if it is MF Husain, Vande Mataram or any other issue….Today it is terrorism but what was the problem when there was no such ‘Muslim terrorism’?
Then Muslms were termed ‘Pakistani’. Then Aurangzeb and Babur were recalled. It has become a habit to blame Muslims. What can Muslims do? We don’t have anything to do with any blast.
Why security agencies and police dont’ arrest real culprits and catch them and sent them behid bars for ever.
yaamyn
065
7:15 pm
@Swati: I’ve already given my opinion on it! (See comment #58)
I might like to repeat it though.
I’ condemn terrorism - ISLAMIST TERRORISM - severely. It would really disturb me if my family, my relatives, my neighbours, my colleagues, or even strangers on the Internet didn’t condemn them.
Thankfully they have. They have condemned it pretty openly. Even the governments around the world have condemned them. These organizations now lie banned and pushed hard for recruitment.
They have been declared unIslamic by groups as conservative as Darul Uloom Deoband… (whom the Taliban are supposed to have looked up to for inspiration) and the US Muslims Religious Council in the liberal USA..
Even the country that you consider the most important, Saudi Arabia, has issued a fatwa against terrorism.
Now all these would satisfy any observer - for they have been condemned by the average citizen, as well as the governments as well as the religious leaders.
Now take the issue of Bajrang Dal - who have even owned up to the attacks - and declare their intentions point blank. Who rules this country? KKK?
You expect SO MUCH from the Muslims.. Now I demand the same from the HIndus. Yes, I DEMAND it.
I want you to cry in horror at the Bajrang Dal atrocities. I want to see the words HINDU TERRORISM PLAGUING INDIA on the front page of every news paper. I want your religious leaders to issue a statement declaring their actions DO NOT represent true Hinduism, failing which - I can only assume that HInduism propagates mindless violence. It’s a dangerous religion, and I will tell my kids and grand kids to avoid this violent ilk.
I will start a MuslimJagruti - and list out all the activities of these terror groups infesting this country - and threatens the livelihood of Muslims (the second largest population after Indonesia, mind you) and seeks to wipe out our culture. * horror!*
I want a clear ban on the use of the words ‘Ram’ and ‘Hindutva’.. and demand that a canal be built for the sake of Muslim ships who otherwise have to brave LTTE (more hindu terrorists) pirates..
In fact, I see HIndu terrorism spreading like a wild fire.. this Hindutva agenda is even spreading to nearby countries! Soon you’ll be all over the world! Such a menace! Soon we won’t be able to eat beef in our own countries!
And I don’t want Hinduism ‘imposed’ on me through Ganesh festivals and loud drums and those ‘immersion’ of statues.
You don’t even get a choice to be a Hindu anyway.. you’re born one! And then get indoctrinated from a young age.
This growing menace needs to be crushed with a firm hand. No matter how many innocent Hindus need to suffer for it. We need more laws that will keep track of all Hindus.. and interrogate them randomly, if necessary. How do you differentiate between a Hindutva brigand and a ‘normal’ Hindu (are there any?) anyways? You’re all the same. It’s difficult to see the difference between the innocent and guilty anyway. Might as well crack down on ALL OF YOU.
Don’t be fooled by this constant talks of ‘Hindutva’ standing for tolerance or acceptance. It’s plain clear for all to see. First they pull down mosques… now they attack churches and burn nuns and beat up priests.. Tolerance my foot. Let’s get all of htem behind bars - all the HIndus. (See, I really can’t distinguish between the ‘innocent’ and ‘guilty’. You all worship these Gods and Godesses.. as if it were some kind of religion, when you’re clearly just a violent cult)
Need I go on?
1conoclast
066
7:38 pm
conti,
I don’t misunderstand you at all.
I just pointed out the flaw in the way you approach two different communities.
I’m a perfectionist too. But I’m also willing to allow you, people & myself to occasionally be less than perfect.
Peace…
yaamyn,
Brave & brilliant effort; but I’m afraid it’s lost on the baser intellect & moral fibre you intended it for. If they understood, do you think you’d need to say it like that?
1conoclast
067
7:46 pm
Thanks for your comments Adnan.
yaamyn
068
8:02 pm
@ Utopian thoughts:-
Two kids on a beach don’t make a public statement.
@ Swati & 1con:
But I’m serious!
You cannot escape the fact that wherever Hindutva has spread, it has resulted in the loss of people’s rights to live peacefully in their own religions of non-Indian origin. My role-reversal shall continue.
I ‘agree’ that some citizens ‘might’ have committed violent acts, and I ‘ridicule’ them… they might even have been ‘Muslims’. Anyways, coming to the burning issue of ACTUAL terrorism.
delta
069
8:03 pm
Deoband has issued fatwas against terrorism
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/muslim-seminary-issues-fatwa-against-terrorism-838162.html
Deoband is not your run of the mill cellphone banning, Salman Khan bashing seminary either, it is reasonably respected in India.
yaamyn
070
8:10 pm
Unfortunately our peaceful country is the epi center of this Hindu terrorism.. I call upon all peaceloving Indians and enlightened Hindus, if-there-are-any, to demand stronger, more potent laws.
UPA government is being soft on HINDU TERROR. I think Manmohan Singh is just too weak.. otherwise he’d have banned them left, right and center.. and even called in the Army if it were necessary - so that the peaceful citizens of this country can live in peace.
I DEMAND the imposition of an equivalent of TADA and POTA, except that this time, it should target only Hindus so that this violent religion is contained. (The violence is appalling! Such a violent religion needs to come to terms with the 21st century!)
What religion can justify violence?!! How horrible! Hinduism has failed to deliver…
Swati
071
8:17 pm
Hinduism has failed to deliver. I completely agree. It wasn’t a religion to begin with, I agree with this too. I agree that Hinduism is not about Ganesh Festivals or the loudspeakers or the traffic jams. It is not about Hindutvis or the RSS or the VHP. It doesn’t BELONG to any one person or group….
In all honesty I don’t know what Hinduism is about in the first place…I’ve said this long ago. No religion can justify violence, that is something I said very long ago also. I don’t see why anyone is harping on Hinduism when what has happened in DELHI has nothing to do with it.
Are we trying to take the attention OFF what just happened in Delhi? Same old tactics? Why don’t we begin a ‘BEAT UP HINDUTVIS’ blog instead of digressing in this one?
…
Baser and moral are not words that suit you considering your post in the first thread I participated in, ICON..it is only forgiven ( not that people of the moral fibre and baser intellect care for that word), not forgotten. So lets not suddenly get uppity.
Swati
072
8:18 pm
Delta,
Have you read any part of the thread? READ the whole commentary from Deoband…and tell me where it addresses terrorism by MUSLIMS.
Swati
073
8:31 pm
Yaamyn,
You found THAT picture in THE HINDU. They carried the Deoband commentary. Where do you find all those news items that enlighten you about HINDU TERRORISM in INDIA?….INDIAN NEWSPAPERS and news channels…they have the FREEDOM to carry these stories and are FAIR enough to carry them. They are not BANNED from calling a spade a spade. YOU have the freedom to talk about it which is more than you can do against any ruling power in any MUSLIM country.
No, that does not absolve HINDUTVIS of their crimes….nothing does. How many times have I stated VERY CLEARLY that I do not support them…the RSS or VHP or BAL THACKRAY? What is it …selective reading syndrome…or just a pre-formed unshakable biased opinion that anyone who questions the MUSLIMS will NOT question the HINDUS? READ THIS PARAH more than once so that you do not raise this question again.
No I don’t find that commentary or ‘fatwa’ satisfactory. I read it again and again. No, not enough is being done to curb the menace of HINDUTVI groups. YES we need more stringent laws against TERRORISM….from any religious group
Can you guarantee that banning the RSS and VHP and the BAJRANG DAL will restore complete peace in our country ? Then I’m all for it. Draw up an online petition and I’ll sign it first.
yaamyn
074
8:32 pm
But I have already ‘ridiculed’ the perpetrators of the Delhi attacks. You”re the one going OFF THE topic. This is typical of Hindus.. whenever you have to condemn the perpetrators, you take two steps backwards. I’ve had enough!
It’s time to call a spade a spade!! It’s no secret that Hindutva is gathering support not just among the lower, poor classes. Even educated, urban upper class Hindus are taking it up. How do you explain this, swati.. if it isn’t mentioned in the religion itself?!
Surely, you HAVE to admit that Hinduism is somewhere AT fault?!
The problem isn’t even local.. Orrisa, Karnataka, Kerala! And every inch of this land.. right from the North East to Central to south India.. and genocide in Gujarat, and Mumbai… Tomorrow it could be us facing the onslaught of these violent jeha– oops, Hindutvis, misguided fanatics, my ass. They’re just doing what Hinduism instructs them to.
You’re just being ‘pseudo secular’, Swati.
These Hindutvavaadis need to be taught a lesson. I mean WHAT DO THEY WANT?! They’re going to impose their alien culture on us through intimidatoin?!
Why is our government such a headless chicken when it comes to acting decisively against such fanatics? I DEMAND stringent action against these Hindus… and we need to show them their place. You’re either with us, or against us.
The peaceful Indian Muslims and Christians have had enough.. don’t stretch our patience and tolerance for too long. You’re taking us for granted.
yaamyn
075
8:40 pm
Does terrorism by Muslims have any different name than ‘Terrorism’? Surely, if the Deobandis had said soemthing along the lines ‘We condemn Hindu Terrorism, CHristian Terrorism and Sikh Terrorism only’, you might have had something to complain about.
ANd don’t you get it, Swati? I DO NOT CARE if you’re not satisfied!
Whenever the time has come, we Muslims and christians have had to pay for it. We’re the ones who get persecuted unfairly by these Bajrang Dals.. and the police is also biased against us.. and so is the government.
I’m telling you, our tolerance is being taken for granted. The government has always failed to support the peaceful Muslims and Christians. We need our own Bal Thakeray!
Swati
076
8:41 pm
Hehehe, are you parroting what Hindus have been saying all along Yaamyn? Because if you are it does sound comic
I have no idea what they want. Maybe you must ask one of them???
Swati
077
8:48 pm
You already have quite a few Bal Thackrays, Yaamyn. You always have had. That is the tragedy. Can’t you see? All those ISLAMIC countries came into existance PEACEFULLY. Sure.
It wasn’t only I that couldn’t see Darul Uloom taking RESPONSIBILITY for the Muslims misunderstanding their religion. I see them washing their hands off by saying …BAH…that isn’t ISLAM. Doesn’t work that way. There has to be another way to bring them back to the path of peace. THAT is what I am trying to say and you are misreading …deliberately (?)..
By saying what I did above, I am NOT supporting what some HINDU(tvis)S do wrong. Why do you insist on misunderstanding?
yaamyn
078
8:59 pm
No, swati.. you can’t wash your hands off ‘them’.
You must be answerable to the crimes that these people commit in the name of YOUR RELIGION. Surely, you can’t deny that these are Hindus doing exactly what pure hinduism tells them to?
Swati
079
9:07 pm
I get what you’re trying to do Yaamyn, but haven’t I admitted as soon as I began to post here that I KNOW they’re not following the basic tenets of Islam?
How can I deny or accept that they’re doing exactly what PURE HINDUISM tells them to?
Ours is a ‘corrupted’ religion..with too many texts…and too many contradictions. Too many human inputs…not directly from any God to his messengers to their writers and editors and scholars and finally some authorities who decided which version of which book we’d all read and follow for eternity.
A corrupt religion has corrupt followers. I can’t justify what they do or the religion they claim to follow. I am sorry.
yaamyn
080
9:07 pm
If you mean self proclaimed Muslim leaders in other countries… Surely, you know that they’re ‘answering’ constat question that are being posed against Islam for a long time. If you look at it that way, Ahmedinejad makes a lot of sense.
But you’re digressing, Swati. You’ll find fault with Muslims.. they have to pay for everything.. they can’t even follow their own religion without someone trying to impose their culture on them.
Same goes for Christians and every other minority in this country.. we’re sick and tired of being bullied. I want potent laws to curb this menace, and eradicate them the way we eradicated Sikh Terrorism from Punjab…
Swati
081
9:10 pm
I am sorry to have to point this out, but Yaamyn you have no right to ‘demand’ anything in India…but on humanitarian grounds, I agree that our government needs to get its act together…and soon. We’re not on opposite sides. You are not winning this game of ’simon said’…:)
I need to go eat…Peace!!
1conoclast
082
9:14 pm
swati…
I suggest you focus on yaamyn for now. He has given you more than your collective ilk can answer. Don’t bring up my one indiscretion when you’ve been guilty throughout your tenure on the Mutiny of far worse!!!
yaamyn,
Will an Iqbal Fakre do?
WAY to go anyway!!!
Human55
083
9:19 pm
Dear friends, let us not blame the muslims. The real culprit is the teaching of Islam iself. All you have to do is read the Quran first hand to realize that Islam is very different from any other religion. It openly preaches hatred and intolerance of non-muslims. Muslims, who are also human like the rest of us, are simply the prisoners of this hateful teaching. Many of them realize this, but cannot speak up, as they will be instatnly targeted by the fanatics in their own community, and will be branded non-muslims. Some are affected more than the others by this islamic indoctrination, and they are the one who become terrorists. Human mind is extremely susceptible to hateful brainwashing, and history has ample proof of this.
Now some enlighetned (ex-)muslims has taken the initiative to expose this hateful nature of Islam at the websites like http://www.faithfreedom.org and http://www.islam-watch.org. The material at these web-sites is invaluable for understanding the real motivation behind the terrorism. We owe it to ourselves to study this material.
yaamyn
084
9:20 pm
Aha! So you admit it’s Hinduism that’s the root of all evil plaguing the country..
You admit it is a corrupted religion.. how can you have followers following a religion that’s so corrupted it preaches violence against priests and pulling down places of worship?!
Manmohan Singh is treating these terrorists with kid gloves. They need to be wiped off the face of this earth…
Why do you warmly welcome these violent entrants into your religion, if you can’t take the blame for what they do?? I’m not saying Hinduism is wrong.. the principles are all right… but look at the way they follow it!
Our tolerance is being taken for granted…
1conoclast
085
9:23 pm
swati,
Why does yaamyn not have any right to demand anything in India?
Do I have the rights that my constitution guarantees me?
And who’s been giving you the right to decide who has the rights or not?
Swati
086
9:26 pm
Icon..glad u’re enjoying his show.
Yaamyn..yeah Hindus are always to blame..even for what happens in Sudan. What a pity we didn’ t realise it earlier! Your tolerance is truly commendable. I suggets more conversions to religions of the book…before we’re all condemned to eternal hell.
1conoclast
087
9:29 pm
Human55,
faithfreedom is run by ali sina, whose arguments even children keep countering effectively on websites across the world. Why don’t you do some proper research & come back? Or would you like me to give you more links than your fingers can count?
And instead of relying on what one man has to say, why don’t you use your own judgement? Buy a copy of the Quran & read it for yourself. Penguin has a good translation available. I’m sure you have the brains to be able to see the truth for yourself.
This is an interesting question to you and everyone like you who makes these irresponsible claims: Have you read the Quran yourself? Or are you claiming stuff without reading at all?
Swati
088
9:29 pm
Icon, either you’ve not been reading very well…or you’ve not been reading very well. Point out one indiscretion of that err….intensity…from my side please?
Yaamyn is Indian? I have the right any other Indian has to tell him he doesn’t have the right that all other Indians have…as a Non-Indian. There is no implied insult there unless you want to see one as always. Persecution complex?
Yes your rights are intact..how you exercise and demand them in tandem with your responsibilities is your lookout.
yaamyn
089
9:35 pm
Think she means I’m a foreigner… But Excuse me, these terrorists don’t distinguish between foreigners and indians..
After they take over India ‘peacefully’, these hindu terrorists will target the neighborhood.. which includes their ridiculous idea of an akhand bharat. So i have every right to protest - on security grounds, as well as on humanitarian grounds.
These Hindutva terrorists have no borders or countries.. they collect money from western countries, where they thrive in Christian communities.. and use that money to make bombs at home.. and kill priests and burn churches.. TALK ABOUT HYPOCRISY!!
And Hanuman.. or was it Human55.. you read these Hindutva sites and try to attack churches and mosques.. congratulations! Your violent ilk will meet a response soon enough..
OUr tolerance is being taken for granted…
1conoclast
090
9:38 pm
swati…
Your calling a fellow Indian a Paki is one. You may think a woman’s honour is more sacred than a man’s patriotism. Others don’t. Your ilk doesn’t. I did & therefore I felt bad.
Plus you’ve been spouting communal hatred all along. I just went against one person in one comment. You’ve been going against an entire mass of humanity ever since you came here.
Who’s indiscretion is greater? Take your pick.
No persecution complex. I’d forgotten about Yaamyn’s country.
I’m glad you remembered about mine.
Yaamyn, over to you.
Swati
091
9:40 pm
Hahaha…May all the Hindu terrorists meet their deserved end. Ameen..SumAmeen.
Something I read in the papers today and agreed with completely and wanted to share.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1190543
I hope it is read COMPLETELY and that she’s not accused of being biased. These days everybody’s peripheral vision seems to be foggy.
Swati
092
9:41 pm
Icon,
I haven’t been going on against any community or defended the one I was born into. If your persecution complex colors your vision, that is your handicap, not mine.
yaamyn
093
9:42 pm
Yes, Swati.. in fact, I think we Muslims need to start a revivalism movement, maybe a Vishwa Muslim Parishad, to teach the values, and to ‘reconvert’ tribals, animists, and other deviants back to the true religion and society - Islam.
Surely, we can gather enough ‘volunteers’ to counter this vast Hindutva conspiracy.. we’ll set up our own shakhas.. and teach them the TRUE glorious history of India and the world.. how Islam brought true enlightenment… and how our culture and customs are far more superior to this ‘alien’ Hindu culture.. which even they admit is completely corrupt and violent.
How can a religion have a symbol such as a Trishul?! *gasp* such horror! We’ll counter every saffron agenda with true culture…
Our tolerance is being stretched too much.. You cant take Muslims and Christians for granted..
Swati
094
9:44 pm
This is getting juvenile..and doesn’t deserve any more reactions. Good luck.
yaamyn
095
9:50 pm
I read that link, Swati.. typical liberal crap.
How can they even try to equate Islamism with something as vile as Hindu Terrorism?? What does he mean they don’t make bombs? It’s an open secret that the Bajrang dal has been into making bombs.. and the Shiv Sena has called for more powerful and potent bombs by Hindu suicide squads to attack peaceful Muslims…
Such remarks can only be made by HIndus.. the government doesn’t dare to act on their violent ilk..whereas has a Muslim said the same thing, the entire media would have gone into a frenzy!! The Muslims are being targeted for their tolerance and peace loving nature.. we’re being victimized for no fault of ours..
OUr tolerance is being taken for granted…
yaamyn
096
9:52 pm
I dare you, Swati… to point out ONE factual error in my posts.. or ONE single statement that hasn’t been repeated for like.. 8 years on posts on hundreds of websites and media outlets?
When I just change the names, it sounds juvenile to you, doesn’t it??
yaamyn
097
9:54 pm
I’ve been debating against juveniles like, forever.
It does begin to sound serious to some, at some point. Take human55 here for instance.. and my principles don’t allow quoting from sacred texts - no matter how corrupt - to pursue an agenda.
You’re just being pseudo secular, Swati.
Swati
098
9:58 pm
Yes in the face of what just happened in Delhi …yes. No, Muslims and Hindus cannot be compared. Hindus are not known to spread intolerance or even their own religion wherever they go. Sorry, Yaamyn…but that is the truth. No amount of goading me, trying to corner me with word games will change that. Nobody will believe what you’ve written.
That does not however mean that I support Hindutvis or any of the Hindus who’ve begun to indulge in terrorism. I am terribly disapppointed in them and the fact that I can’t seem to get this point thru to you.
Everytime a finger is pointed at Muslim terrorists, please do not turn around and say ‘you do it too’…that is not defense..that is just finger pointing.
Swati
099
10:01 pm
Am I being pseudo secular, Yaamyn? Going by your emotional rant in your blog, you are an extremist..but I wont call you one because I know you’re not. Isn’t everything supposed to be understood in its context and tone? Taken out of context even a religious text can be misunderstood. You, of all people, should know that.
I’m weary of this line of argument. I know you’ve already formed your opinion and will not see recognise a genuine post. Whats the point?
contentious
100
10:06 pm
Yaamyn enough already… this burlesque take on your “8 years on posts on hundreds of websites and media outlets”
Points noted and points wasted here on Mutiny. Perhaps you should present your “presentation of facts” to one of the mainstream newspapers/magazines and invite views/reviews. That would be most constructive, isnt it !
yaamyn
101
10:15 pm
I wouldn’t call Orissa and Karnataka the highlights of tolerance.
This Hindu tolerance can be called a myth, if you look at hte very origins of the RSS all those years ago.. even before that the Tilaks of the world existed with their revivalist movements…
So seriously, Swati.. tell me, why don’t you see the words HINDU TERRORISTS in the media.. despite the long intolerance and oft repeated attacks and calls for suicide bombing sqads and .. lemme see, bombs?
What do you they teach in those RSS schools? Pluralism? Tolerance? A world view of liberalism? Nope.
The fault with you, Swati… is you only point fingers and ask questions from ONE community. (while paying lip service to your own ignorance about hindu stances)
Your exacting standards that you seek from Muslims are impossible to live upto by any humans… your view of Islam is completely monolithic, stereotyped and completely unrealistic and untrue… You make Islam and Muslims look like one single entity with one mind.. while in reality we’re a billion (1,000,000,000) separate humans with normal human behaviour and victims of human nature..
Your questions may seem valid to you.. and even to me, if only they’d been asked as a general rule at human kind, not to Muslims.
Imagine a school teacher admonishing one student in a class of 50, for not wearing a uniform - when the fact is that all 50 are without them. You’re thinking is along a very narrow band.. and needs to expand.
As a liberal, I’m willing to examine the fault of the home team, before rooting for the necks of the opponents..
Conservatives cannot do this. To criticize themselves is blasphemous.
As a human, I’m completely outraged by the extremists and their growing influence… it has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs.. and I don’t feel the need to take sides.
When I question, I question everyone equally. I’ve already pointed out that SIMI and other organizations are banned.. and my bent of mind tends towards equality.. so I cannot understand why - in an age of growing extremism and fundamentalism - that a Bajrang Dal is NOT banned. Or a Shiv Sena.. who can hold an entire state to ransom.
These are valid questions.. and they’ve been ducked too often.
As for the Muslims.. i can’t say there’s anything left for me to do. Everyone who can condemn it, has already done that. The governments have banned them.. it’s now upto intelligence agencies and police and armies to deal with these terrorists.. what can I do? I’m just a normal person who’s as capable as you in dealing with it.
Can you go out and stop terrorism, Swati? If I tell you to deal with this islamist terrorism.. what would you do? What makes you think I have some special connection with them? I don’t personally know any Islamist terrorists.. and i don’t think I”ve ever come across such an extremist in person in my whole life. I know about as much as you do about them.
yaamyn
102
10:24 pm
as for my rant on my blog.. even I thought i was on the very teetering edge of acceptance. But I did start off saying I was under emotional stress.
And i didn’t make any false claims, or calls for violence.. did I? I’ never did. SO you can’t call me extremist, again.
Contentious - i was just replaying in my mind the kind of language i’ve now grown accustomed to hearing from people who avoid debates. You know I didn’t mean any of that.. but those people who actually use it, they do.
And the responses i got for my outburst on the blog were muted and positive. I typed out that entire rant in less than 10 minutes.. so YOU KNOW i was expressing an inner anguish.
And i haven’t revealed WHY i was emotionally distressed either. Have i?
Swati
103
10:32 pm
Your blog was read and re-read by me Yaamyn…and I empathise with a lot of things you said there…and in your earlier post. I do question my own religion and everything that is wrong with the way it is practiced not only on the internet but also in my own social /private circles…to the extent that I compare it with Islam and have been pointedly told to convert if I wasn’t satisfied with Hinduism…you don’t have to believe this, but it is true.
Why you wont notice or even acknowledge the fact that I say I DO NOT support Hindu terrorists is beyond me. I give up. I agree that Muslims are being pushed against the wall and I am sure it isn’t comfortable. What can I do but say that I condemn EVERYTHING that has brought us all to this state. It is sad.
All the best to you.
yaamyn
104
10:43 pm
i HAVE noticed that you have repeatedly stated that you do not support those extremist hindutva parties, Swati. I didn’t miss that.
However - at least on the mutiny - i DO feel you’re being unfair by the sheer standards of conformity you expect from the average Muslim.. as if a Muslim has a greater stake in national security than a hindu or a christian.
The moment you begin to look at them as citizens rather than a mindless brick in the foundation of a monolith Islam, you’ll find the answers.
Don’t think the Indian muslim is any more capable of bringing change than the average hinduism. The only thing that can defeat extremism is whenthe liberals and moderates unite and unconditionally take it head on.
Swati
105
10:51 pm
Yaamyn
Please don’t accuse me of something you are guilty of….much more than I am. Your blog, which I enjoy reading because I agree with many things you say…and disagree with many…also has rants not emotionally typed on Sunday.
You’ve accused, rudiculed, condemned, ranted against and sometimes appreciated all things Indian. Why are your expectations from this MASSIVE country …full of individuals from diverse backgrounds and cultures…not a MONOLITHIC institution….much more than those from your own country / religion? Do you think it is easy to run a country such as ours? If you have as much right to question as I do, then you have equal responsibility too.
Do what you think is right against those you think are wrong. Do unto them what you want us to…
yaamyn
106
11:15 pm
Believe you me, Swati.. you have no idea how much more criticism I level at my own country and people, than i can ever throw at ‘India’.
I applaud quite a few things about this country, and have never shied from being called an India-lover, even in my own country. When you’re outraged against something wrong going in the country, it can only show how much you love it.
(Which perhaps explains why the crticism of my own country is markedly harsher.. even if you haven’t seen them yet. I can assure you of that)
Like I said, I’m a liberal, and quite open to criticizing the home team.. I”m not sure if you noticed.. but I never take the patronizing third party view or a high moral ground when I talk about Indian issues. If I hadn’t mentoined that I’m a foreigner, you probably wouldn’t have noticed.
What’s racism in India got to do with me after all? It won’t be long before I return to my country, where I’ll be completely at ease being a Muslim.. but that’s not RIGHT.
You haven’t seen the kind of comments I have drummed up (yes, I do a bit of campaigning too) for the sake of dropping the Islamic nature of the Maldives… to dissociate religion from politics, and to prevent arabization of our islamic character, to promote freedom of religion, speech and expression and to promote democracy itself.
You haven’t seen it yet. So i won’t fault you for assuming such.
When I accuse ‘India’ - I’m accusing the entire society, of which I consider myself a part of (even if you think I don’t have a right!) I’m accusing the inherent hypocrisy of being intolerant and xenophobic in a country that’s truly a glowing example of multiculturalism, variety and richness in diversity.
it’s an unfortunate contradiction that Hindutva has gained root in a society as inherently accepting and diverse as India.
I love pluralism.. i find beauty in difference.. People from a different race, culture and language excite me. I try to imbibe the best in all, and celebrate what we call the Human race and its achievements.
In my quest, I have learned a bit of HIndi (can read and write!) , Malayalam… i can even communicate in Tamil, Kannada, Punjabi, Nepali and Dzongkha.. I have had Hindu, Christian and Buddhist roommates… and I’ve learnt quite a lot from all of them.
I believe I’m sensitive to the local customs and mindsets, and I’m in touch with friends from countries around the world.. (Being a Maldivian has its advantages! We get so many visitors.. in a truly peaceful atmosphere)
I’m not trying to tout my vast knowledge here.. I’m just trying to say that I’m NOT xenophobic, nor am I narrow minded, nor am I ignorant. My various contacts with various cultures have enlightened me quite a lot, and I want to show the beauty of it to people blinded by racial hatred and bigotry for the sake of pure politics and polarization of communities for electoral gains.
The absolute wonderful feeling of accepting and discovering newer and newer cultures and learning about them is a joy that I’m afraid people like Human55 may never discover.
Such a wasted life.
yaamyn
107
11:49 pm
*sigh!*
Human55
108
12:16 am
Dear Iconoclast,
Yes, I have read the Quran. That too an authentic translation by Pickthall. I have also seen the sites like faithfreedom.com who claim to counter Ali Sina. So your bluff will not work. If it is so easy to refute Ali Sina, why don’t you debate with him yourself. Falsehood has no legs to stand on. Truth is bound to win eventually.
Swati
109
8:22 am
Yaamyn,
I have read your blog about how you feel about the burkha and the ‘arabization’ of your culture and country. I made similar points on another forum long ago…but I had to take on a Muslim and male sounding nick name even to be heard…because as a Hindu, I was seen as an enemy and an Isalmophobe. When I make points against Hindu practices, again I’m seen as someone who pretends to be secular. It is unfortunate how we are ignored by even our own when we speak our minds against established norms. I know where u’re coming from.
Some of us are lucky to have been exposed to the good and bad sides of different societies and cultres in this world. Even with so much information available, there are many who do not care to find out…or to know about other cultures or peoples. They are happy being frogs in their own little wells, critical and wary of anything alien. How can one accept or tolerate something one knows nothing about? Do you see what the problem is? It is easy to scare a limited mind…to provoke it…to programme it. What we need is education and the will to learn.
I like the word you used…monolith…India is not one. It never has been. It is impractical to expect it to be. The population is too diverse in religion, class, attitude, intellect, temperament….Even those countries whose citizens are bound by one language and one religion find it difficult to progress as one…India will take time. No point beating up our government when we can’t even suggest a solution to this problem of diversity. Unfortunately for us, the govt is made up of politicians..not people who care or understand.
One thing we can do is be responsible in what we say on a public forum and not add to the existing chaos.
Achmed
110
1:03 pm
Wow are you guys done? Yaamyn and Swati?
It was a good debate. Enjoyed thoroughly. Peace now?
Big Boss
111
1:13 pm
Yammyn…
Kudos to you, you’ve put up a brave act, debated great, didn’t lose track and eventually succeeded in toning Swati down in her usual anti Islam rhetoric.
Aah Swati, no girl, don’t you even try to defend yourself now, you started this debate by an anti Islam remark, your comment no.15 – “Well when one of the few relics of the religion of PEACE is a SWORD, there isn’t much left to be said, is there?”
Yammyn’s first comment (no.10) on the other hand was absolutely peaceful. He was merely pointing out the factual inaccuracy in Sanjukta’s post.
Peace.
This is how,
112
1:16 pm
@How of comment no.20,
First, your question is flawed. Terrorists are terrorists, there is no muslim terrorist or hindu terrorist.
If you still really want to know how you differentiate, you do it the same way you differentiate between a guy next door and a potential criminal; the regular Hindu friend of yours and a Bajrang Dal / RSS / Hindutva activist;
Simply put - there is no way; Further simplified - your question is flawed.
1conoclast
113
4:08 pm
Human55,
You have read it huh? And you still don’t understand what it says? Pitiable. Either your translation was flawed or your understanding. Take your pick. Thankfully, to us & many more like us, Islam talks of peace & restraint. Thankfully for you!
Yaamyn,
Very well done! APPLAUSE!
You have achieved what I thought was impossible. Maybe people DO have to be spoken to in the language they understand! Good going!
Swati
114
5:10 pm
Big Boss,
I standby that. I don’t see how a sword can be a symbol of a religion of Peace and submission. As for the Trishul, Sudarshana Chakra, etc, it didn’t belong to a human being that was setting examples. They were mentioned in MYTHOLOGY…there is a difference.
And YES, I believe the Qoran advocates Peace. Now go figure.
Swati
115
5:13 pm
Sheesh, what a bunch of jokers!!
Swati
116
5:15 pm
It is so sad that people will not read when they are biased…but will read when they want to pretend they’ve won some war that never was. Pathetic!!
Swati
117
7:44 pm
Nothing has been achieved, I’ve merely gone back to saying what I’ve said from the beginning of my participation in this site. The celebration should be for having been able to read and understand finally…not for any imagined change in my stance or tone.
Swati
118
7:46 pm
Chacko, one genuine doubt…is this editing/deleting reserved only for Hindus or for others as well? A bit like the SIMI ban situation, don’t you think? Otherwise, Icon’s provocative tone in many posts must offend you as much as ours does in mellowers ones….no????
Achmed
119
8:11 pm
@Swati
“Nothing has been achieved”
Defensive denial. First sign of defeat. Tsk Tsk.
Swati
120
8:13 pm
Sigh!
Human55
121
8:17 pm
1conoclast,
There are innumerable verses in quran cursing the non-believer and consigning them to hell-fire. Here are a few.
The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.
For disbelievers is a painful doom.
Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, on them is the curse of Allah and angels and of men combined.
Here is the direct instruction to fight non-muslims:
And fight them until persecution is no more, and the religion is for Allah.
Instructions to muslims not be befriend non-muslims:
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friend in preference to believers. Whosoever does that hath no connection with Allah unless it be that ye but guard against them.
Terrorism is directly prescribed in the following verse:
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners.
Suicide bombers are motivated by the following verse.
Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other.
The list of such quotations is endless. I wonder if YOU have read the Quran.
1conoclast
122
8:56 pm
Swati,
Whether you want to accept it or not, your tone AND stance have both changed. And it is a noble thing. Don’t go back on it just because we’re all complimenting you on it. I mean it, you’ve done well; you’ve come a long way. The new you is a refreshing welcome you!
And don’t bait chacko thus. He edits comments not Hindus. If a Muslim or a Christian talks rubbish he will get punted too. It’s just sad that most of the rubbish on this site is spouted by names like sanjay, swati etc. As for my provocative tone, it’s not the tone that matters. What matters is whether someone is spreading hatred or trying to engineer peace. If I were trying the former, trust me I’d have been edited out a long time back. I try & engineer peace rather aggressively, but that’s the language people here understand; as yaamyn demonstrated.
Human55,
I’ve not only read it but also understood it. I have knowledge of the history of the times as well & events linked to various verses. Unfortunately this is something you don’t have.
When Mohammad started his religion, he met with a lot of opposition, ostracism, attempted assassinations etc. All new religious leaders did. So did he.
He left for Madina with his followers. Even there they weren’t left alone. His enemies wanted to engage him in battle there as well. So they were met & defeated in battle. The term “disbelievers” refers to the ones who were trying to persecute Mohammad & his followers. They did not believe in the religion he brought to them so they were referred to as the disbelievers. That’s about it.
There’s no point reading so much into it.
It doesn’t apply to all non-Muslims.
It is unfortunate that your understanding of the Quran is the same as that of the terrorists.
I hope you learnt something today.
Swati
123
9:35 pm
Icon, I went back to the Omar Abdullah blog and read all my comments to see how my tone or attitude had changed and found nothing. :)..so save your compliments for yourself. I compliment you on having read and understood my later posts. Good going!!
Your hatred and hateful tone is against individuals..and please…don’t compare yourself with Yaamyn. I may or may not agree with him…he might manipulate, play games, bait, etc…but will never argue like you do. I do not feel the slightest fear of personal insult when I am arguing with him. I am sure everyone who reads the two of you will see the difference.
And no, I am not flattering him at this juncture, only stating the truth…tho you are free to believe and state what you like, as always.
Swati
124
9:37 pm
They did not believe in the religion he brought to them so they were referred to as the disbelievers
///
How did he take Islam to them before the revelations were complete? If they were complete, how did the word ‘disbelievers’ creep into the religion LATER and b
Swati
125
9:37 pm
…oops..
…and become part of the book?
ivar
126
10:30 pm
Comment deleted.
Swati
127
10:32 pm
Sanjukta ref: Pingback
I see the fact that a sword is exhibited as an Islamic relic contradictory to the basic principles of Islam. It is like finding a gun exhibited at Sabarmati Ashram…I don’t mean to make an irreverent comparison or. It is a logical statement, definitely not an anti-Islamic one. Do think
And why are people posting under various nicknames here while making serious allegations? I see many posts appearing here under different nicknames as the blog written by you. It is confusing.
This is not the first time I’ve ‘admitted’ that I do not support the RSS or BAJRANG DAL or any other such HINDUTVI organisation. Kindly go back to the Omar Abdullah blog..where I began writing in Mutiny and check.
Please state the truth…and do not misinterpret what is said to suit your biases. Thank you.
Swati
128
11:06 pm
Sanjukta ref: Pingback
I read all our posts in the Bengali Muslim thread..I suggest that you go thru all the posts there too before you accuse anyone of attacking you or supporting the Hindutvi brigade.
Please state the truth. Especially when it can be easily verified. Thank you.
yaamyn
129
11:35 pm
@human55:
You might want to go once again and check if ‘death for apostasy’ (which even more hardline Muslims accept as part of their religion) is for deserting Islam, or for high treason in the time of war? :p
It’s an interesting question. You’d love to research on it.
@ Swati: I think you answered your own question.. however, before Islam was codified in its present form, the prophet already had quite a wide following in Madina.. (the jews thought he was their prophet too, btw) The counted among the ‘believers’ too, though they clearly weren’t Muslims. One of the reasons why the qiblah (direction of prayer) was changed from jerusalem to Meccah.
Anyways… like you might be aware, there was this war going on between the tribes… the believers and disbelievers.. it wasn’t very nice to defect, it wasn’t very conducive to victory, not using a sword in a war sounded foolish in the desert 1400 years ago - even if the prophet had known that a certain Swati would disapprove of it a millenium and half later - and well, wars were won by defeating the enemy. Something along the lines of Ram killing Ravana. (Now, he cud have put him in solitary confinement or sth, in hindsight.. )
Anyways, I really wonder why mythology and fact get blurred so much. I remember being confused once about this. I’d grown up thinking the Ramayana and Mahabharata were great epics along the lines of Odyssey.. and before I knew it, there appeared a Ram Janmabhoomi, which was unfortunately located right under the foundations of an old mosque.
How did a mythological character get birth in a real place? Anyways.. then there appeared coins ‘from the kingdom of Ram’.. so it I guessed Ram must have been a benevolent king.. but why is a king worshipped as a God, it struck me as odd.. and now they say Hanuman’s bridge is being demolished to build a canal.. to intentionally offend Hindus (conspiracy by Sonia, who loves conspiracies) … now I’m completely befuddled.
I’ve even heard BJP leaders say it’s mythology. “According to Hindu Mythology..’ they start many a rant..
Will someone clarify on this a little bit? I want a general public opinion on this, to educate myself.
yaamyn
130
11:48 pm
that was a slight digression (hope people will still enlighten me though. I really want to learn about it)
Anyways… to further educate Swati on the bits that I DO know.. several modern day ‘Islamic idenitities’ did not develop until many several years after the prophet.
For example, the dome shaped mosques came much later, with the rising influence of the turks and persians.. The Ottomans and the Persians can single handedly take much of the credit for shaping modern Islamic identity.
The green ‘Islamic’ flag is also a later adoption .. the original prophets flag was black. (made more contrast - and sense - in the desert) . You still see a bit of this black in the flags of the gulf countries such as Yemen…
The crescent and stars were also of pagan origin. The ottomans adopted in their flag from the old flag, which was sort of a compromise between a new Islam, and older pagan customs. (Part of the reason why Kemal Ataturk didn’t mind it on his flag - precisely cuz it wasn’t Islamic in nature)
YOu might notice that none of the arabian countries have the crescent and star on their flag - but they DO retain the black stripe.
Well… wat’s the point? Present day Islam is an evolution overtime, and has adapted itself to the local cultures wherever it has spread. So it’s quite pathetic to see some wahabbis trying to ‘return’ to their roots while waving a crescent and star flag.. and praying in mosques with non arabian architecture.. and doing lots of things the prophet would have been horrified seeing them do..
Weird.
Swati
131
6:57 am
Thank you Yaamyn, for ‘educating’ me. Like you said, the facts you stated aren’t new to me…but thanks for clarifying.
I am not a big fan of the Ramayan, more because of the MCP angle than anything else. There are many other things I don’t personally agree with in the story. I also don’t see cousins going all out to kill each other for the sake of property or pride…and I don’t know any Hindu woman with 5 husbands. Thank God we’re able to see the Mahabharat as a story and not an example to follow in everyday life. Those who will find reason in just about anything to cause trouble will do so…I will not defend them.
I don’t know why people find it necessary to worship KINGS or indulge in hero worship….to talk like they personally know people that lived centuries ago, justify every bizzare story about them…whitewash history, defend, offend, FIGHT on the basis of what was written by strangers in a strange era and situation…as if they know their every emotion, can predict their every reaction…based on what? stories…written by who? Other human beings that we don’t know except thru other stories written again by others…because they’d feel lost without these stories which most often are just that. I’d rather live in the now…but then that is my personal choice not to be confused with common sense.
These shadows are our heroes…we can’t see heroes in our daily lives…in people we meet every day. We’re more ready to suspect those we actually know and judge them on the basis of the rules these shadows supposedly set than believe them though it should be the other way around.
Yes I am sure a lot of things that go against the tenets of Islam are happening. But it is ok for you to say that and not me. I understand.
Swati
132
7:23 am
Yaamyn, I am still confused
//Anyways… like you might be aware, there was this war going on between the tribes… the believers and disbelievers.. it wasn’t very nice to defect, it wasn’t very conducive to victory, not using a sword in a war sounded foolish in the desert 1400 years ago - even if the prophet had known that a certain Swati would disapprove of it a millenium and half later - and well, wars were won by defeating the enemy//
How can rules made up for wars become part of a religion? Today maybe some followers don’t see it as conducive to give up arms in a situation they see as dangerous. How can we demand peace when you are implying that violence is mandatory in violent times?
contentious
133
10:46 am
Swati , I am no expert on nor have I read the original text and personally don’t go rah rah over the hero of Ramayana and don’t see any rationale of shedding blood over a “maryada purshottam” (ideal man) who may or may not lived those 750,000 (I think) years ago.
But ordinary regular people need heros’/role models/ “Gods” to inspirit/galvanize/provoke them towards what is the righteous path (never mind that Rama turned out to be one helluva chauvinist ) . The philosophy of Ramayana forms an integral part of Hinduism and is the spiritual, cultural and artistic inspiration for scores of Hindus/Indians and people globally. And this epic has sustained itself over several millenniums in the hearts and minds of followers of Hinduism. So would be incorrect to dismiss and/ or insult the faith of its adherents. Wot say u.
“The first and the last Books of the Ramayana are later additions. The bulk, consisting of Books II–VI, represents Rama as an ideal hero. In Books I and VII, however Rama is made an avatara or incarnation of Vishnu, and the epic poem is transformed into a Vaishnava text. “
“Theologists worship Sri Rama as a God incarnate, philosophers make him the philosophical Absolute, while at the same time, materialists, condemning the above, appreciate the lyrical values of Ramayana, but as a great devotee-singer said “Whoever calls you in whatever way, you are that One”.
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/
Hope that helps, Yaamyn, never mind what BJP says!
Swati
134
10:58 am
Like I said, Contentious, my opinion is my own and I express it when questioned without meaning to insult those who disagree with me. I am against hero worship and idolising people we have no way of knowing personally.
I don’t mind learning from people who do many things better than I do… I will respect them for what they do better but accept that they are not perfect in everything they do…I will not turn them into flawless examples or Gods for that matter. That goes against the basics of any religion really and I think we can be misled by blind faith in any human being or God that we don’t really know well enough to defend or follow. But again that is me…since I am being addressed here.
Those who have ‘unshakable’ faith will not be bothered by what I think anyway..so…
Swati
135
11:05 am
And this epic has sustained itself over several millenniums in the hearts and minds of followers of Hinduism
..
Contentious, I doubt if most of us have read the Sampurna Ramayana…or understood the symbolic importance of many of its stories and characters. To read an ‘amar chitra katha’ and to imbibe a philosophy are two different things. Our parents say..BOW, OBEY…RESPECT, we do..IF YOU DON’T GOD WILL BE ANGRY..OK..don’t ask stupid questions….OK…and so it goes on. We continue to do what they did…who wants to rock the boat?
So now when the bridge has to be demolished, we have Hindus going……OOOOO Ram’s bridge..uhoh…etc. Array it has served its purpose..now what? Talk environmentally and I’ll agree..but what does Ram have to do with that bridge now?
Why would a God need an army to defeat Ravan? How many people died so he cd bring Sita back? Why did he bring Sita back if he finally had to question her modesty? My people said not to ask questions…to either respect or shut up. Can’t do either for the life of me!!!!
contentious
136
11:05 am
Sure Swati, each to his/ her own. May we all coexist without treading on each others toes and starting mini wars over matters of belief.
PEACE!
contentious
137
11:27 am
Swati, I may be a rationalist and u too. But faith has nothing to do with rationality. Asking questions is good! Do it, educate but we dont need to turn into bots ridiculing and over analysing each and every aspect of their convictions/ dogmas.
Dont think for a minute that all true faithfuls are bound to the philosophy of Ramayana by reading the shortcuts like Amar Chitra Katha (though I too am guilty of being introduced by the same modus). Its a spiritual synergy beyond our limited understanding.
And about Ram setu etc, u know as well as I do its just a political ploy to screw up the minds of the devout/adherents/non believers alike. Having said that ( and I know this has been discussed ad nauseum) why ruffle the feathers/faith of a people when destroying it doesnt serve any REAL mundane purpose.
Swati
138
1:43 pm
I agree, but thiswas about more than ruffled feathers..DELHI. Wasn’t it? Our attention has been successfully taken away from it.
And one of my deleted posts in Chacko’s thread said - I don’t care what religion people follow…even if it is brinjalism…as long as they don’t step on my toes or sermonise me. I stick by that.
Achmed
139
1:59 pm
Did anybody answer this? Does anybody have an answer?
I’d grown up thinking the Ramayana and Mahabharata were great epics along the lines of Odyssey.. and before I knew it, there appeared a Ram Janmabhoomi, which was unfortunately located right under the foundations of an old mosque.
How did a mythological character get birth in a real place? [ref. Comment no.129]
Swati
140
2:15 pm
Yeah imagine that Achmed..even Sri Lanka was mentioned…think the ICC is behind this???
1conoclast
141
4:57 pm
swati…
If you didn’t notice, I started my comment with “Whether you accept it or not…”
And I’m glad you prefer yaamyn over me. I do too.
Anyone who can tone swati chandran down, make her change/moderate her original stance deserves my admiration!
Secondly the Quran was revealed over a period of time & not at one shot. I’m sorry but did you NOT KNOW that?
Allow me to educate you a little more. He “submitted to the will of God” making him a Muslim, a follower of Islam. His followers did the same. That’s all it took. Then revelation upon revelation came through him & all were incorporated into the book.
Do you actually believe that any religious/spiritual text can be written down in one day?
I hope this is making some sense to you.
Swati
142
5:56 pm
No, I know it took 23 years, Icon. But if the Qoran is mandatory for embracing Islam today, it should have been that way then too. But it wasn’t? How did he know what God expected of him till the revelations were complete and whether he really could accept what they brought as his religion? Are we not asked in Islam to first understand and then accept? Is partial acceptance ok? I think not, do ‘educate’ me further.
And no this isn’t an Anti Islamic question.
And no he hasn’t toned me down…My tone and attitude remain the same …but if believing that makes you read my posts unbiasedly then TATHASTU
1conoclast
143
6:43 pm
Good Swati.
Like I said before (& you thought I was being sarcastic), now that you’re asking questions, the answers will follow. With or without inputs from me.
I’m hardly an expert but this is what I know: Becoming a Muslim at that time meant accepting that there is one God & that Muhammad is his messenger. And it meant submitting to the will of God. Everything else would follow. The revelations, the prescribed way of life, all would follow over the next few years.
I’m no Maulana or missionary, but I believe that even today, that is all that it takes to become a Muslim.
If you submit to the will of God, you learn not to question. You may question the book, the preacher, the messenger all you like, and get your answers; but if you accept God as all knowing & benevolent why would you question His very word?
I believe Muhammad did exactly that. Accepted God’s will unquestioningly but allowed his followers to question him.
Why don’t you watch The Message? It will show you how reason was used & how force was prohibited in bringing people into the faith.
Swati
144
7:06 pm
Hmm…how do wars fit into God’s will?
Swati
145
7:09 pm
but if you accept God as all knowing & benevolent why would you question His very word?
…
Are you sure the words we got were the words the messenger got, verbatim?
1conoclast
146
7:59 pm
Swati…
How does anything fit into God’s will? Natural disasters, death, disease, tough times…
It depends on what you believe in. If you believe in God, depending on the extent of your belief (or submission) you will treat something as His will or happenstance.
Your second question can be answered by someone who is a devout Muslim. I’m not one, but I’m not the teenaged sceptic that I used to be either.
Devout Muslims believe that what Muhammad heard were the words of God.
People believe that Joan of Arc heard God’s voice.
The Mahabharat tells us that Arjun “saw” God.
It depends on what you want to believe in.
And if Muhammad didn’t hear God’s voice, he must’ve been an amazing man to come up with all of that himself, no?
1conoclast
147
8:03 pm
Sanjukta,
Good news. Papers today reported police graphologist as saying that the writers of the indian mujahideen email “may” not be Muslims at all.
Swati
148
8:59 pm
No…not what he heard. I believe when we listen to our conscience after shutting out the world, we’re listening to the voice of God., I don’t doubt that he heard the voice of God too…I am asking if what we got as the Qoran is what he heard - verbatim.
1conoclast
149
9:08 pm
So I’m told swati.
Swati
150
9:18 pm
Achmed
151
10:41 pm
Oh cmon…what crap. THERE IS NO GOD. Now I know it… now that I am dead. NO GOD, NO VIRGINS HERE…
yaamyn
152
12:18 pm
No human55,
There’s nothing in the Qur’an that needs to be revised.. but there’s a terrible lack of awareness about the holy book of the Muslims.
(Well, there’s a lack of awareness about most, if not ALL religious books - how many of you can readily quote from the Torah, Bible or the Gita? - but none of them of as central importance as the Qur’an, given the massive ‘Islam/Muslim/Islamist’ debate that has been raging relentlessly in the several years in the media and on the streets.)
If you don’t know the history behind it, and the context of that quote - when you don’t know what comes before and what comes AFTER that quote.. when you don’t know the tone of the book or narrative - when you don’t know the very definitions of who are involved… HOW CAN YOU EVEN SAY you know the quote?
The Qur’an is neither a self-help book, nor a novel. It is NOT a step by step guide to being a Muslim. The entire Qur’an has an underlying tone of fearing God and obeying Him.. it narrates accounts of wars, of past prophets, of peoples who have strayed from the path of God.. of the bounties of Nature and life, of the promise of an After Life and heaven and hell… of the virtues of honesty and piety .. of truthfulness and modesty.. of angels and satan.. of good deeds and rewards and of evil deeds and hell… of prayer.. The VERY FIRST VERSE of the Qur’an commands an unlettered prophet to READ. (Why then is the much prevalent illiteracy among Muslims blamed on Islam?)
When a verse in the Qur’an explicity states that killing a person unjustly is equal to killing all of mankind - it fails to catch your eyes. But when there’s a tale of war (as in the battle of Badr) - with the inherent violence of war described in words- it’s taken as a ‘principle of Islam’ by vested interests - both Islamists and Islamophobes.
The former uses it to recruit disaffected youths - the latter uses it to build pubilc paranoia in their favor, for petty politics of polarization of society.
You can’t judge the beauty of a religion by a random quote, dissected from history and context. But unfortunately, that’s how most people judge Islam.
Swati
153
1:06 pm
Yes it is beautiful, only I still can’t figure how people who weren’t equipped with the whole text / complete revelations could have been converted. Since Muhammed was a human being claiming to be recieving them, those who converted trusted HIM…and not in the unquestionable word of God. Armed with an incompletely revealed religion, how did he ‘convert’ so many?
Again, not an anti -Islam question.
Swati
154
1:13 pm
Again, IQRA hasn’t been explained as READ only…it is also said to mean RECITE. Also the word UMMI has been ambiguously defined. If he had been asked to READ by God, he wouldn’t have remained unlettered for the rest of the 23 years of revelation. Also it beats me why Muslims take pride in the fact that he was unlettered, yet brought us Islam….and was a PERFECT example for every Muslim.
I’d have thought literacy would have been the first priority when God, no less, was revealing a religion for Mankind to be followed for eternity. The Qoran was not compiled or written in his lifetime. There is no way of knowing that it is exactly what the Prophet heard from God via Gibrael…
( Just as there is no way of proving today that Ram existed…Please don’t see this as an anti-islamic post)
Swati
155
1:32 pm
You can’t know a quote…or a verse from a book meant for everyone and all time to come…out of context? Who or what defines that context - the hadith…written by? - human beings…and if Islam is a religion from God directly, why must we trust the perspective and context provided by other humans? Confusing. Please ‘educate’.
1conoclast
156
2:24 pm
Human55,
It’s not really. Just because you don’t have an answer to it doesn’t mean you get get aggressive & dismiss it. That is the truth whether you like it or not.
And Muslims are not disowning any verses from the Quran anywhere. They’re just telling people to interpret it right.
And why’re asking me questions about the Paki govt. What do I care? I am concerned more about how idiots like you view Muslims & their religion in India. Without connecting it to Pakistan.
Who declares modern interpretations false & the interpreter a non-Muslim?
My Grandfather was a progressive Islamic scholar (among many other things). No one dared declare him a non-Muslim. He was considered a leading light on modern Islamic thought. People like Rafique Zakaria consulted him.
Do you even KNOW the rubbish you’re talking???
Swati
157
9:59 pm
This is SICK. Why do you keep a ‘YOUR COMMENT’ box if you all you want to hear is your own rants or those that agree with them?
Swati
158
10:03 pm
So….an unlettered Prophet was asked by God to read? And did that order change his unlettered state or did he remain that way? Who wrote the Qoran?
Swati
159
9:33 am
It’s not really. Just because you don’t have an answer to it doesn’t mean you get get aggressive & dismiss it.
//
Replace dismiss with delete, and we have MUTINY
Hindustan
160
5:15 pm
Hindustan should be made a completely hindu state with hindu laws and policies.That is the only solution!
Do you see any christian,hindu,buddhist or any other religious body or person fighting for “rights” in Saudi Arabia???or any muslim in
Israel??The answer is no!
All other countries that have strong links to their religion have been run according to religion.Then why is that only only Hindustan has to be
secular?
All this carnage and destruction is as a result of that.Are there muslims terrorists blasting people everyday in Israel??No the closest they can get
is to the border before they are shot dead.They cannot do this in Israel everyday because there is no support from insiders there.They do NOT
give “privileges” to “minorities” and allow them to flourish,only for them to reward you back with Jihad!
Hindustan was,is and shall ever be a hindu country.Why do we need any other person’s or group’s permission to correctly declare it as a Hindu
state?Why shouldnt we?Because a few people will protest?Hindustan has to be strong and take decisions by itself and not be afraid of what a
few backward people will think about it or their opinion.If we do it today,the little harm it will cause will be nothing compared to what will happen if
we wait and do it tommorow!
Hindustan has every right to do what it wants,there is no need to beg and please people from other religion because EVERY OTHER RELIGION
HAVE THEIR OWN COUNTRY RULED AND GOVERNED BY THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS LAWS.
HINDUSTAN IS THE TRUE COUNTRY OF HINDUS,IF WE GIVE THAT AWAY THEN WE WONT BE LEFT WITH ANYTHING!WE SHOULD
DEFEND AND PROTECT IT WITH ALL OUR MIGHT.
If other faiths dont like Hindustan they can go back to their own places where their religion is enforced in the country BUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN
TO HINDUS WHEN HINDUSTAN IS NO MORE??
Why should there be a pakistan or a bangladesh???was there any partition in saudi for hindus or christians?then why in Hindustan??if muslims
cannot live in Hindustan then they should have been asked to leave instead of dividing and giving away pieces of India.And after all that they still
want Kashmir???and who knows what else they want next??Maharashtra?Assam???Tamil Nadu???Even if Kashmir is given away their
madness will not end.
Infact the more you succumb to their demands the more weaker we get.
Who the hell are they that we should listen to them?Next time they ask something we should blast them with nuclear! If they use force then why are
we not using force??We can squish them like the tiny mosquitoes they are!!
IF WE DONT ACT NOW THEN INDIA WILL JUST BE ANOTHER COUNTRY WHICH WILL LOGICALLY BE PART OF THE GROUP OF
DECAYING,DYING AND BACKWARD COUNTRIES-”MIDDLE EAST”
Hindustan
161
5:18 pm
Hindustan should be made a completely hindu state with hindu laws and policies.That is the only solution!
Do you see any christian,hindu,buddhist or any other religious body or person fighting for “rights” in Saudi Arabia???or any muslim in Israel??The answer is no!
All other countries that have strong links to their religion have been run according to religion.Then why is that only only Hindustan has to be secular?
All this carnage and destruction is as a result of that.Are there muslims terrorists blasting people everyday in Israel??No the closest they can get is to the border before they are shot dead.They cannot do this in Israel everyday because there is no support from insiders there.They do NOT give “privileges” to “minorities” and allow them to flourish,only for them to reward you back with Jihad!
Hindustan was,is and shall ever be a hindu country.Why do we need any other person’s or group’s permission to correctly declare it as a Hindu state?Why shouldnt we?Because a few people will protest?Hindustan has to be strong and take decisions by itself and not be afraid of what a few backward people will think about it or their opinion.If we do it today,the little harm it will cause will be nothing compared to what will happen if we wait and do it tommorow!
Hindustan has every right to do what it wants,there is no need to beg and please people from other religion because EVERY OTHER RELIGION HAVE THEIR OWN COUNTRY RULED AND GOVERNED BY THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS LAWS.
HINDUSTAN IS THE TRUE COUNTRY OF HINDUS,IF WE GIVE THAT AWAY THEN WE WONT BE LEFT WITH ANYTHING!WE SHOULD DEFEND AND PROTECT IT WITH ALL OUR MIGHT.
If other faiths dont like Hindustan they can go back to their own places where their religion is enforced in the country BUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO HINDUS WHEN HINDUSTAN IS NO MORE??
Why should there be a pakistan or a bangladesh???was there any partition in saudi for hindus or christians?then why in Hindustan??if muslims cannot live in Hindustan then they should have been asked to leave instead of dividing and giving away pieces of India.And after all that they still want Kashmir???and who knows what else they want next??Maharashtra?Assam???Tamil Nadu???Even if Kashmir is given away their madness will not end.
Infact the more you succumb to their demands the more weaker we get.
Who the hell are they that we should listen to them?Next time they ask something we should blast them with nuclear! If they use force then why are we not using force??We can squish them like the tiny mosquitoes they are!!
IF WE DONT ACT NOW THEN INDIA WILL JUST BE ANOTHER COUNTRY WHICH WILL LOGICALLY BE PART OF THE GROUP OF DECAYING,DYING AND BACKWARD COUNTRIES-”MIDDLE EAST”
mohit
162
12:55 pm
hindu is sleeping cult,muslim is aggressor,we are so much mast in this materialistic world and since we are secular of first order we dont acre about any development changes which are happening in our society.
let me put light on few facts 5 million (50 lacs) hindu were raped and butchered in banglaesh,go and meet those bengalis who have escaped and are into india they will tell what has been done to them by muslims(peace lovers),partition you all know what has happen to sikh and hindu by our peace lovers.
visit europe ,australia these muslims are raping,murdering and what not plz try to understand they are followers of prophet muhammad who use to loot caravans and kill kafirs non muslims,it is in there blood what they are doing it hardly matters the magnitude of assult or bloodshed.
hindus of india might be thinking that they are living in free india but mistaken as muslims in india is now 20%,and they are known /popular world wide when they reach the position of dominance in the society they wont tolerate other caste taht means civil riots on street of cities MIND YOU TIMID HINDU POLICE ALONE CANNOT PREVENT YOU FROM BEING MURDERED BY THESE PEACE LOVERS ,AS THERE QUANITY WILL BE VRY LARGE AND YOU WILL BE ATTACKED SYSTEMATICALLY AFTER MOSQUE PRAYER.
friends wake up ,leave aside your peace loving attitude and be prep with assult as i hope you HINDUS WONT LIKE YOUR MOTHER SISTER WIFE DAUGHTER GRANDMA CHACHI TAI NOT RAPED IN PUBLIC AS MUSLIM ARE KNOWN TO RAPE opposote religion as shown under there jehad agenda.
HINDU MEN RSS VHP SHIVSENA alone acnnot help you ,so start doing efforts to check what muslims are doing in society and in world be prep.
mohit (hindu) true indian
MMM
163
1:51 pm
Mohit,
Was someone in your family raped by a Muslim? and did he explain he did it because he is a peace lover.
How do you live man, with so much fear?
Johnykutty
164
12:05 pm
@Hindustan: Do you know why pakis(in fact not all Pakis, those terrorists) are still fighting for Kashmir ?? At the time of partition the king of Kashmir didn’t want to join the Indian Union. Instead, he wanted to have an independent country, despite warnings from Mountbatten that they would not be able live themselves in between India and Pak. Finally they had to join the Indian Union when Pakis started attacking to conquer it and its still continuing. I guess these could have been avoided had the then Kashmir king joined the Indian Union initially.
You said about the rape etc at the time of partition.. ppl in Pakistan do have bitter stories about the partition. If time permits watch the BBC documentary “The Day India Burned” rather than ranting hatred. I accept your view, Hindustan only for Hindus. Ooops!! do you propose Khalistan for Sikhs ? Do you propose all Aryans to go back from India. Yes, i saw in another documentary by BBC “Story of India” that Aryans came from current Turkmenistan. So can the native dwellers(even they too came from elsewhere, africa?), who were here before the Aryans came, ask the Aryans to get out of India ? Finally, i hope to see you in Africa
–hope i haven’t hurt anyone