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Mar032008
A comparison of mythologies
I’ve often wondered at the similarity in words, in dress, in folklore & mythology between 2 seemingly divergent cultures. Are human beings across the globe actually that different? Were we always different or how we become different over the years. Is this due to a misled assertion of “identity”. I don’t know the answers. It’s a topic that sociologists should explore.
I present a few theories about what may have happened in India.
Greek influence on India:
Take a look at the ancient Gods in Greek & in Indian Mythology:
They both had a King of the Gods!!! A God of Lightning. They called him Zeus, we Indra.
They had a God for everything! We did too! God of Love, (Eros & Kama), a Sun God (Apollo & Surya) & so on.
Let’s take a look at the Greek epics. The Iliad talks about a great war. One in which a conglomerate crossed the sea to attack the kingdom who’s prince stole another king’s wife! Sound familiar?
The most famous figure in the Iliad is Achilles, who was killed with an arrow to the heel. Krishna is the most famous figure in the Mahabharat. He was apparently killed with an arrow to the toe (citation needed), albeit not in war.
The ancient Greeks cremated their dead? Well in ancient India (during the Harrapan era), the departed were buried. What brought about our move to cremation?
The sari is known as an Indian dress today, but theories abound about it being derived from the Greeks.
It’s common knowledge that the Greeks had reached all the way from what is modern day Afghanistan up to modern day Bihar. It’s a known fact that the Greek general gave his daughter in marriage to Chandragupta Maurya.
Could it be that what we are today is somehow inextricably linked to ancient Greece?
Other (far-fetched) theories:
This you may have heard before. Brahma is an acronym for Abraham. Abraham is the precursor to all other prophets in Judaism, Christianity & Islam. Is it possible that we may be referring to the same person, but in very very different ways?
I’ve heard from someone that the meaning of the term “Shiv” actually means, “that which is not”. To me that sounds suspiciously like “anti-matter”! Could it be possible that the ancient Indians were trying to explain scientific phenomena & over time it somehow got converted to the Indian Holy Trinity?
It’s late & I can’t think of anymore right now, but I will return to edit this post if I remember anymore.
I’d also like to mention Mahesh’s claim that the ancient Greek civilization is gone. How can it be sir, when it lives right under your nose in India?!
The views expressed in this post are those of the writer and are not necessarily endorsed by Mutiny.in
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sanjay
001
12:35 pm
“Greek influence on India:”
I am glad you have realised that the culture of India and ancient Europe had many similarities in customs, language and theology. The Brit colonialists noticed it first and, in white man’s imperial arrogance, declared that all wisdom and knowledge would naturally have flowed from the white man’s land to India.
It is actually the other way round. It is India that influenced ancient Greeks. Ancient Greece is overhyped by the modern White historians. Classical Athens only had a populaton of 10,000 peoplel! You have to do more research on this. Why does all wisdom always flow from white man’s land to India but never the other way round?
No only that, the ancient pre-Christian Druidic civilisation of Europe was totally influenced by India with similar customs. In fact, some think that the Druids were actually Brahmins. The word “Druid” itself is a corruption of word “Dravid”, that is, Drav: liquid, Vid: knowledge, hence “immersed in knowledge.”
The Aryan invasion theory has been abandoned and now many historians have begun to talk about the “Aryans went from India to Europe” theory.
It is hilarious though, the way White historians today pretend that movement of knowledge and wisdom from Europe to India could only have been a one way traffic. You have falled in the same trap by declaring “Greek influence on India.” Do you know the Indian civilisation is older than classical Greek civlisation by 2,000 years? Then why did you not assume that somehow the India wisdom found its way to ancient Greece? Have you read Plato’s philosophy? Read to know what torture it is.
The problem is that you are using the conditioning of the last 200 years of White man’s supremacy to interpret historical events of 3000 years ago. Dude, that time the whole of Europe was swinging from trees and living in caves. Have you even read European history?
Do you know what Aristotle told Alexander when he asked what he could bring to him from India?
sanjay
002
12:59 pm
And it is “theology,” not “mythology.”
It is a Christian trick to call their own scriptures as “theology” while those of the pagans as “mythology” implying that pagans believe in myths and fairy tales in contrast to the “dead body comes alive and flies” which is a proper, well-documented, scientifically vaildated truth, according to them and hence it cannot be “mythology.”
O what a tangled web a group of people weave when they want to claim eternal superiority over others …
1conoclast
003
1:34 pm
sanjay…
Believe what you want to believe. Spread what you want to spread. WE (”the white man’s world”) will fail your children in history exams.
What you’re saying is possible, but unlikely because as I pointed out, Harappa had graves & cremation was a later practise. Most probably adopted by the Indians. You of course can refuse to accept it like you refuse to accept the Aryan invasion theory. The Aryan invasion theory is still valid. Only a bunch of extremists don’t want to believe it. The firangs buy it. Indians bought it back then. Indians like me buy it. You’re outnumbered dude. Not to mention delusional.
I hope you’re aware that the oldest civilization in the world was the Sumerian & not the Indus Valley? By that logic, maybe India’s knowledge came from the precursors to the modern day Iraqis? Hmmph!
If you know so much and are the history author you claim to be, why don’t you write a post about it. Provide links & references, make your point. What is your education doing languishing in the comments section on the Mutiny.
Write a post on your blog. Give us a link. Or write one here. I’ll get Chacko & 2S to invite you. Or you can write as a guest on my blog? Take your pick. There’re 3 offers here. Let’s play!
And unless you can do that, it’s going to remain mythology to me. Theology is the essence of what is in the Gita. But if you insist that Indra is theology, then we’re really in trouble dude…!
Woke
004
3:05 pm
I am just a little bit lost on what you are trying to prove here. And did you really mean the theories are far-fetched?
Besides
“The firangs buy it. Indians bought it back then. Indians like me buy it. You’re outnumbered dude. Not to mention delusional.” may not be the perfect way to assert your opinion.
Influences between cultures and civilisations are perfectly reasonable - you make it sound like it is like an Anu Malik rip-off.
sanjay
005
3:16 pm
You are just parroting the colonial White man’s view of history of the rest of the world which puts Western civilisation on top. As they say, the Brits vacated India but left the converts behind to carry forward their agenda of proving the superiorty of Western civilisation.
As an Indian, shame on you for supporting the cooked-up theories of White racists just because you have been drugged by their tribal Lord. (This is not much different from Indian Muslims claiming all world civlisation began from Arabia.)
I cannot wake you up because you are pretending to be asleep and as long as you beleive in your Lord, you cannot be convinced that there have been other pagan civilisations that rose to glory and success thousands of years before your White master race learnt to walk upright.
This is what the opium of Semitic faiths do to converts. They turn against their own civilisaiton and become cheerleaders of the civilisaiton of the master race.
sanjay
006
3:25 pm
“And unless you can do that, it’s going to remain mythology to me. Theology is the essence of what is in the Gita. But if you insist that Indra is theology, then we’re really in trouble dude…!”
By this logic, what parts in the Bible according to you can be categorised as “mythology”?
You have a corpse which came alive and flew. Muslims have a flying horse which took Mohammad to Jersulame and back the same night. We have Indira who lives in the clouds and sends rain.
Now, how come the first is theology and the last two are mythology?
sanjay
007
3:47 pm
“The firangs buy it. Indians bought it back then. Indians like me buy it. You’re outnumbered dude. Not to mention delusional.
1conoclast
008
4:24 pm
Woke,
I agree that it’s not the perfect way to debate anything; but trust me, we’ve tried everything reasonable with sanjay! Trying something new this time. Let’s see if that works.
Don’t understand your “theories are far-fetched” & “Anu Malik rip-off” references.
sanjay
009
4:47 pm
“Don’t understand your “theories are far-fetched
1conoclast
010
4:48 pm
sanjay choudhary…
Listen to me. You’re just proving me right everytime you respond with such vehemence. Look, this post had nothing to do with what you refer to as the Semetic religions. For you everything is about how evil Christianity or Islam are. For you they’re somehow the anti-thesis of Hinduism. Isn’t like that for us. You’re as usual at a wild tangent from the post. This wasn’t at all about religous superiority, but you’re bent on taking it there.
You want to restrict your identitiy to being Indian, you’re most welcome. I don’t need any restrictions of race or boundary.
Flying horses, the dead coming alive are myths too. No one ever said they weren’t. You’re the one jumping to conclusions, driven as usual by your anti-”Semetic” hate. Think carefully before you accuse me. I will not stand for it.
The Aryans coming in from outside is still a valid theory contrary to your half-baked claims. In the absence of an immediately available, credible source, you can sample the Indo-Aryan theory on Wikipedia.
And like I said before, I’m mere nanometers from walking away from this “conversation”… unless you accept one of the three invitations extended to you? What’re you running away from?
PS: I’m talking fairly nicely to you (at least right now). Why don’t you refrain from the “what’re you smoking” bit? Samajhdar aur Bhai bola hai to Bhai ki tarah baat karte hain. Haven’t we been at each other’s throats long enough?
woke
011
4:54 pm
Other (far-fetched) theories: is your subhead.
I guess the sari would have a longer history than a single instance of Chandra Gupta marrying a Greek princess as quoted in the Museum of London link.
Most of your reasoning to link Greek and Indian mythology looks unconvincing. Besides, I think Sanjay has made some very valid points especially how theology and mythology has been used by historians.
1conoclast
012
6:14 pm
woke,
There may be more theories regarding the theory, but somehow I haven’t come across any yet. If you can offer any other sources, please do. Or as they say at Christian weddings…
My reasoning??? I thank you for giving this post more credit than it deserves. It’s meant to be just a bunch of random thoughts. I thought I made that clear.
And you’ve truly made sanjay’s day by lending credence to him. I for one don’t see how random theories of Greek influence could be related to theology!
I also can’t see how they offend someone unless they’re constantly on the defensive (for no reason).
And I didn’t realize you were being rude with your Anu Malik remark.
The Modern Mullah
013
10:05 pm
Indian civilization (Harappan 3000BC and Aryan 2000BC), appeared much before Greek Civilization (1300-323BC), Source(http://www.indhistory.com/aryan.html). How can something that happens a full 700-1000 years in future influence the present?
sanjay
014
10:55 pm
“Samajhdar aur Bhai bola hai to Bhai ki tarah baat karte hain. Haven’t we been at each other’s throats long enough?”
All right. Let us smoke the peace pipe as fellow Indians..
firsttimevisitor
015
12:13 am
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firsttimevisitor
016
12:27 am
i know one thing for sure MM & SANJAY that whatever civilization came first , during that time people were communicating through sign language and there are not clues of which religion they were following. they were just BEING a HUMAN.
@ Sanjay : Can you tell me in which century ,people started following religion(Eg HInduism ). I am aware of Chola,pandyas down south and aware of the fact that the north india was invaded by different civilzations (read religions? ). i really want to know.
what i interpret from 1Cono is that he is just trying to say that be it a greek or indian mythology ,being so far from each other physically ,people were/are same.its the mentality(read religion) which is dividing.
when you fight on the fact that harappa came first and thats why greeks followed harappa.
i will just give you one example and that should suffice to any sensible person. when humans were evolved(read the last specie of monkeys) ,they used to roam around naked ,later they started covering themselves with leaves and all. Now the other groups when found this ,they also started following as this made some sense. now the same way religion is just a WAY OF LIVING Boss not your life . so JUST RESPECT please.
if you really want to make a difference then you have to expand your thinking.BiG picture you see!!
GANDHI knew from the start that his way of asking freedom would take years and many years.he started with small group(read many religions) and expanded in many years.
You need GUTTS to stand up for something you say and Do, which in turn make a difference in somebody’s life and thats how it spreads. Go out and spread the knowledge in good spirit not COMPARISONS BOSS .
you wont be happy if your WORK is compared with that of a peer every time and you are told again and again on how well he is doing compared to you even though you are good. you would definately ask to keep his MOUTH SHUT and RESPECT each and every person working their own way. (if you dont think that way ,then you are 2 in 100s,can BET on that) .So same way I would ask you to SHUT it.
Polar
017
12:41 am
1conoclast: Interesting analysis.
As for the responses, I think some credible citations would help the cause of everybody here.
Not to suggest that anyone who has posted comments here is /entirely/ wrong, but why do some immediately assume a position of moral and otherwise superiority? We have quite a lot to be proud of as Indians, but that does not mean we have to have always been at the centre of the universe (figuratively of course).
There is a large part of the world that developed rather nicely with probably no influence whatsoever from the Indians or the Greek (or some other folk in between for that matter). They aren’t any less important than us.
And what’s with all the anger? Nobody here sympathises with colonialism, yet disagreeing with a certain view of Indian history/culture/values (showing some humility in other words) is construed as anti-Indian and evil. I’m reminded of them in the US who equate being against the war to hating their soldiers.
Apologies for wandering off topic.
Karmadude
018
1:00 am
Historians have muddled up history so much that making such conclusions is often a folly. If you have ever read Megasthenes’ view of India or even Arrian’s Grecko-Roman view of India, you often find more fabulous interpretations of Indian concepts they could not grasp, rather than a portrayal of the truth.
Even though Megasthenes tries to associate Greek gods with the Indian gods, he never concludes the two to be the same. So, if the Greeks never concluded the two to be the same back then, I am sure there were enough differences between the two. However, this does not mean that similar stories could not have had a common source. Maybe historians out there can shed more light on this.
Nevertheless, both Megasthenes’ and Arrian’s writings, even though fabulous at times, do give an interesting view of India back then (provided the translations are not biased), definitely worth a read for the curious minds out there.
The Modern Mullah
019
1:05 am
@firsttimevisitor,
1conoclast is stating under “Greek Influence on India”, examples of Hindu practices which predate the Greek civilization by more than 700 years. I am surprised no one is finding anything wrong with this. How can you influence events in the past? You can only be influenced by them.
sanjay
020
1:15 am
First Time Visitor and Polar, it is clear that both of you guys do not have much idea of what has been going on in the history, religion and sociology departments of Western universities about studies of the Indian subcontinent and for what ulterior political purpose such theroies are being peddled and why the church and White racists are the creators and fanatical defenders of the Aryan Invasion Theory.. Calling Aryan Invasion Theory as “alternative view of Indian history” is as good as calling a dagger a nail-cutter.
You have to learn to distinguish between genuine historians and historians who are cooking up theories to serve the geo-poltical interests of the West in pagan socieites.
For example, Max Mueller was a missionary scholar who was translating Indian scriptures with a political motive — to shame Hindus and uproot Hinduism. He is an example of a politician historian cooking up theories to achieve political ends. There are many more such political historians roaming the western world today dabbling in Indian history and pulling theories out of their arse if it suits thier agenda.
Max Mueller translated Rig Veda into English. This is what he told his wife about his agenda:
“The translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3000 years.”
This is the same man who pulled Aryan as a Race theory out of his arse. Is it too difficult to discover why he did this?
Bacche ho abhi!
You people are just innocent babies in this world of academic deciet and historical and sociological theories of policial import that are designed to ensure one pagan will kill another pagan in some part of the world..
Read some more, especially Rajiv Malhotra’s articles. YOu can start with this:
http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2002/09/risa-lila-1-wendy-s-child-syndrome.htm
Polar
021
1:55 am
I do agree, but not entirely, with Sanjay - I remain unconvinced of any ulterior political motive. Definitely in the past, and maybe in sections of society even today, but only in the sidelines.
Not all are xenophobes or racists. To be quite blunt, most people just don’t care enough, either way.
Excellent point about Max Müller - although do bear in mind he was also criticised by the Church.
As for subversions, I’m sure you are aware of the BJP’s antics from not so long ago. http://www.sacw.net/India_History/DelHistorians.pdf
I’d also recommend you watch Michael Wood’s 6 part documentary The Story of India - you might find it on Google Video (each part is an hour). While in no way exhaustive, it does present a contemporary historians view of the history of the subcontinent, in Wood’s inimitable style.
Thank you for that link. I hope the anger isn’t infectious.
firsttimevisitor
022
2:01 am
@ sanjay :
agar aap sochte ho ki aap bade ho to mujhe hassi aayegi kyonki harkaten bacchon waali hain. i didnt even abuse once in my comments and i would never try to learn anything from “BADE” like you. Basha ka aachaar vichaar sahi dhang se karen. you dont have patience to prove your point in a decent way,how can you go out in the world and fight for a cause(be it a religion ism),aise bhadko ge to aapki TA TA BYE BYE jald hi ho jaayegi bhandhu.
@MM & Sanjay : i am not touching anything in history.Many theories are coming up and many have been denied . and same thing will happen in future because NOBODY IS SO SURE ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN PAST (2000-3000BC). you dig the earth and seas to find clues and calculate the age and then age some historians go further and find more clues and this goes on.
I was talking about the intention of the post which you seriously did not get it. instead AAP bokhala gaye aur ajeeb se shabd istemaal karne lag gaye. I again say “RESPECT”. BADE HO TO BADON KI TARAH behave karo .
@MM : i asked one question to SANJAY ,when the religion thing started after harappa ? coz I read from the notes of HARAPPA links that they were communicating though symbols. I no where mentioned about which came first because I DONT KNOW BOSS. so how can i comment on 1cono. BUT I GOT HIS INTENTION.
firsttimevisitor
023
2:14 am
@sanjay : thanks for the link.i am reading it.
and one thing is clear from this link,PROPER usage of language TALKS louder then using defaming words(which never inspires anybody).
Nagashankar
024
2:22 am
I have been a fan of mutiny.in so far.. but got a bit pissed off with this thread especially because the comments section is become another thread by itself.. I felt it is more attack on others rather than just clarrification or thoughts… …
I hope this wouldn’t continue.
Polar
025
4:15 am
Sanjay:
Having read Mr. Malhotra, I must say that he doesn’t sounds quite unlike those he criticise.
Some of the quoted studies sound ludicrous indeed, and others rather curious. I do plan on acquiring a copy of Vishnu on Freud’s Desk.
I fail to see why he feels so offended. In fact offence has no meaning in academia or even any discussion.
Interesting read. Thank you.
(Sometimes I wish that the word Hindu didn’t (or couldn’t even) mean so many different things for so many different people.)
1conoclast
026
5:38 pm
Polar,
Ah…! A sane voice finally. Thanks.
A friend sent me an SMS once saying that the word Hindu didn’t even originate in India & that the origins of this word were most likely in Arabia. There is even a theory that puts the blame on the ancient Persians (both of whom at that time weren’t Muslims).
I present a site that has written a beautiful post about this. The last few lines are making me ROTFWL! Here: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_meaning.asp
I also present one of the sanest voices on the Web here:
http://indianmuslims.in/my-vision-for-india-pluralism-secularism-economic-growth/
Look for “Sridhar on February 28th, 2008 5:08 pm”
Katha
027
8:09 pm
The real facts about the connections between India and Europe are simply that “Europeans” originally hailed from India, and always maintained their connections with its homeland. The term “white” is a rather discriminating term, because blacks were NOT the “original Indians” - rather the Gaels/Ionians were the original “Indians,” as well as the “first” Greeks. That is why there are so many similarities found in the ancient Ionian Greek stories, and philosophies. They did not borrow or steal from India. They were the “Indians!”
The Black peoples were the Dryacks that Indra, “God” (King) of the “Indians” (counterpart in eZeus) attempted to annhilate with his armies. These simple black folk were nomadic aborigines. Indra is described in the Vedas as having a yellow beard and hair, and was hell-bent on ridding India of the . The Dryacks (Blacks), who absolutely did not build the ancient empire of India, but the Aryan Gaels (”whites”) did.
Sanscrit is the root of all European languages and scripts, and is not from the ancient, once unlettered Dryack aborigines. Ever hear of the term “Indo-European.?” This is referring to the original Europeans, not to any so-called mixed blood gypsies.
As with all cultures, even these ancient “untouchable” Dryacks were finally absorbed by the ancient Gaelics who once ruled the whole of India through to
Egypt and so on. The continent link between India and Arabia is now found inundated under the Indian ocean via satellite imagery. The ancient Greek language was Ionian (ancient “Greek”). China was also an ancient Gaelic nation. It was called Cathay an ancient Gaelic name, as is katha and gatha. Ancient Chinese (Mandarin is purely Gaelic). “Chinese/Sheenies” is still a name for the Gaels today, and means Moon. Saka is another name for Scythian, who were the ancient Gaels/Celts.
Today, the black pigment of the Dryacks (not the very “white” Aryans/Ionians) is prominent in today’s Indian person, although originally he hailed from “lilly white” ancestors (as well as Dryack/black ) ancestors. The Bhramins were Persians, known as Aryans/Iranians, and today as the Irish/Arans. They were not Dryacks. India has lost its knowledge of its own past. Probably because of ancient wars that wiped out its leaders and teachers, as well as mass inundations of the fertile parts of its continent by the rising of ice-age melt-down.
The “Greeks,” that is, the Ionians were actually the folks who promoted and and taught the original Buddhism (the so-called “disciples”. Buddha was actually a take-off of Laozi, a westerner, and possibly an Aryan Hindi, as was his actual culture Gaelic/Celtic. The truth is the truth, whether one wants to admit it or not. And everyone has white ancestors, as well as some black, whether they want to admit it or not. Neither one is any better than the other.
Talk about “mutiny” here.