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Feb272008
Jodhaa Akbar on NDTV’s The Big Fight
Yes, I caught a little TV last night. A little less sleep as well! Was actually sitting down to watch my favourite shows on Star - Seinfeld & Friends, when I saw Ashutosh Gowarikar on the telly. I stopped, wondering how it had got this far. Very interesting actually. There was a panel that comprised film folk (Gowarikar, Farooque Shaikh, Sudhir Mishra, a fairly pansy Komal Nahata & another film critic), a lady historian, and the root cause of all the trouble in Rajasthan a certain Mr. karni (described as the patron(!) of the karni sena).
Some excerpts:
karni was ranting about his problem actually being with the depiction of Jodha Bai as Akbar’s wife when she was actually his daughter in law. He found that offensive & disparaging to the Rajputs. I wonder if that was actually the motivation behind it, but if it was I thought fair point. Until I heard Nahata speak. Nahata said that the movie had been in the making for 2 years, that the name had been in the offing for 5 months before the release of the movie. Why did the karni sena have to wait for the release to protest? Hmmm… Interesting.
Nahata also pointed out that none of the protests in Rajasthan were peaceful requests to cinema owners. He rattled off names & locations of various cinemas in Rajasthan & Madhya Pradhesh where the owners have said that they are scared as they’ve been told politely that their cinemas will be burned down if they screen the film. At this point Farooque Shaikh (ever the gentleman) asked whether this was a lawful form of protest. Why could they not go through the Indian Legal system, the courts instead of protesting in such barbaric ways?
The anchor (can’t seem to recall his name) pointed out that the legal system takes about 30 years to resolve a case & by that time the movie will have influenced crores of people. To which Farooque quietly said something to this effect, “If Rajput history hasn’t been hurt in 700 years, what difference could another few years possibly make?”! Hmmm… Very Interesting.
Mr. karni was making some noises in totally unintelligible English about the future possibility of Indira Gandhi being potrayed as Gandhiji’s daughter. The anchor then asked Ashutosh if he felt that he had an additional responsibility since he was making a movie on historical figures. Ashutosh (& the historian lady) agreed. Ashutosh said that he had spoken to the current Raja & Rani of the Kachchawa dynasty of Jaipur before he made the film & as part of his research, as Jodha belonged to their family. He stated that he had narrated his script to them & that they’d given him the go ahead with both the depiction of Rajputs in the film AND the name Jodha (as that was what they too believed her name to be, from among the plethora of names she is referred to by historians)! I’m assuming the right-wing brigade is now going to label this royal family of Jaipur, traitors & pseudo-hindus (HOW I ABHOR that term!)
At this point some of the film folk asked how many no-objection certificates should a film-maker obtain? In response to a later suggestion by an audience member, the historian lady also said that she “didn’t think it was practical”. A film-maker approaches the censor board for a certificate. Nowadays they apparently approach the animal welfare board for a certificate too. Ashutosh does his research very well, consulting Jodha’s descendants besides a variety of historians, yet he must strive for another few NOC’s! Farooque (by now the legal eagle) said that the right way of lodging a protest is to ask the censor board to step into court. Let them fight the case, why should the film-maker be constantly bothered?
A valid question came from the anchor again: What if someone makes a film deliberately tampering with history? Would the filmy panel still back his creative license?
Sudhir Mishra then gave the example of the despicable mee nathuram godse boltoay. He said that to him Gandhiji was the greatest son that India produced. He said that to him the very idea of the aforementioned (can’t bring myself to type out that name again!) play is anathema. He said he “abhors” it. Yet he will stand up for the playwright’s right to write & show it. This is the “bleddy” problem with moderates I think!
A few things that I’d like to say here:
What is the function of a sena? Debate? Obviously not. Then why are they being given an ear to?
I’ve said this here as well & I’m saying it again. One thing that these jokers don’t realise is that their protests are in vain. They’ve blown this thing out of proportion. Ashutosh is suddenly on prime-time television, talking about his movie. He’s not spending a rupee on promoting it on movie & music channels. Instead he’s part of a panel discussion to discuss his movie! WOW! The added curiosity will send more people to the cinemas. Despite the movie playing only 3 shows instead of 4, despite it not being shown in Rajasthan & now in MP (both despicable BJP states), the movie has made almost the same amount of money as the other box-office winner. Add two more states & it will easily overtake that crappy piece of film-making!
Instead, if they’d protested quietly, like the Opus Dei did to The Da Vinci Code, people wouldn’t have branded them as barbarians & would’ve heard their voice. The Opus Dei, after the movie had run it’s course, was quietly featured in the Indian Express & all doubts were dispelled about it’s beliefs. No harm done to them. But like I’ve said before, the Christian community in India is the model of good behaviour. Now I’ll be called everything from a “pseudo” (UTTERLY LAUGHABLE TERM, NEED A NEW NAME!) to a missionary to a church-agent! 
Anyway, over to the awam…
The views expressed in this post are those of the writer and are not necessarily endorsed by Mutiny.in
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pooja
001
5:39 pm
Well this inded is a very interesting article.And of course keeping in track with the current trend it’s very true that anything from film-making to law-making or school dress codes to discotheque rules have all been sensationalized of late.Banning a movie in a particular area seems to have become the norm.Just look at Fanna,Aaja nachle and now this!!!It seems to only increase with time.Not that anyon has asked for their intervention to uphold their so called”PSEUDO” values.It is indeed sad and in a way a mockery,for that which we call the world’s largest democracy is slowly being corroded at it’s very roots(freedom being it’s essence).What we gain can only be narrowmindedness,unrest,hypocrisy.I mean the so called Moral Police dose not even have moral ways of protesting let alone set things right.And no one has asked them to do that anyway.These appear to be just gimmicks to gain instant attention and have their 15 minutes of fame.
1conoclast
002
6:53 pm
Pooja,
Thanks.
“I mean the so called Moral Police dose not even have moral ways of protesting let alone set things right”. Well Said!
I’m concerned about what total inaction that these goons are met with. Shouldn’t the Govt. step in & kick their arses?
The Modern Mullah
003
7:30 pm
The protest against Jodha Akbar is a political stunt by the BJP to try and influence Rajput vote in Rajasthan and MP which are going to polls this year.
1conoclast
004
7:43 pm
I’M GOING TO HAVE A HEART ATTACK!!!
MY JAW ALREADY HURTS FROM CLANGING DOWN TO THE FLOOR @ 80 MPH…
Secretary, Animal Welfare Board of India
005
8:47 pm
Animal Welfare Board of India screens movies using any performing animals under the Performing Animals Rules, 2001, an act of Parliament. The same is aimed to see and screen any depiction of cruelty to animals in movies, advertisements and films to prevent wrong message to the society. The Board functions as statutory body, frames rules and effectively acts as advisory body to state and central governments on animal welfare matters to reduce pain and suffering of speechless animals.
Krishna Aradhi
006
9:01 pm
How can the Moral Police go on a rampage destroying public property every time something ‘offends’ them and still get away with it? They do it openly in front of the media but not one of the rioters is ever convicted. It really doesn’t matter if it is a BJP-ruled state or not, this happens everywhere.
And yes, I am sure Gowarikar is enjoying this free publicity for his ’sleep-inducing’ movie. Heh, who won’t?
1conoclast
007
9:51 pm
Yeah… Pretty disgusting state of affairs actually. And what are people like us doing? Blogging about it!!! Let’s go to Rajasthan & MP & kick their butt! What do you say? Or let’s flood these states with CD’s (or Internet downloads) of the movie!!! The karnis & the bajrangis won’t even know what hit them!!!
Don’t necessarily agree with ’sleep-inducing’. Just because a movie is slow paced doesn’t make it bad. Remember Shatranj Ke Khiladi? Just in case people accuse me of comparing the two… I’m not. I’m only referring to pace!
The Modern Mullah
008
9:59 pm
@1conoclast,
Lets also distribute cartoons of prophet mohd. in J&K, Kerala and West Bengal. If you agree I can distribute Jodha Akbar while you distribute PBUH cartoons. Lets flood India with CD’s and downloads of these cartoons. LoL the mullah’s won’t even know what hit them!
1conoclast
009
10:20 pm
phir ghalat baat MM…
How’re cartoons of the Prophet even remotely related to Jodha Akbar??? What could the connection be?
I’m unable to understand the workings of your brain. Will you please help me understand?
The Modern Mullah
010
10:46 pm
@1conoclast,
I just want to help you achieve your objective of distributing Jodha Akbar in MP and Rajasthan. I can do it free for you if you can do the cartoon distribution for me.
Chacko
011
12:25 am
@MM, how is Jodhaa Akbar related to the cartton issue? Jodha Akbar is an Indian movie made by an Indian director - inspired by our history. It might not be factually correct - maybe even boring - but it’s up to the people of MO and Rajastan if they want to see it.
How many US or UK papers or TV channels do you see showing the cartoon? Why is that? Think MM. The very country you are living in doesn’t publish them - and you want to disrupt the peace in our? Why don’t you come to MP and Rajastan and try to do it yourself?
1conoclast
012
12:30 am
MM… You didn’t answer my question. How’re the 2 related? As usual, you don’t have an answer. Which means that you will escape from this post as well. Or will you wait till Admin warns you again?
As for free distribution, dont’ worry. I’m sure there are many “berozgars” in a BJP ruled state who will do it for me for next to nothing!
Get off my space!
Arun sundar
013
12:55 am
Well, nice post. It was like watching ‘The Big Fight’.
2S
014
1:15 am
@1conoclast - this is “our” space
and “our” includes the awam.
I do not agree at all with your point on the “moderate”. Sudhir Mishra will stand up to fight for it because if there is someone who has an opinion to voice he/she is entirely entitled to do so. Freedom of expression is tricky, it’s a power you can both use and abuse, but it’s better to get an opinion voiced and counter it constructively that mute the voice, unless there are people dying out there as a result of those voices.
The Modern Mullah
015
1:24 am
(final post in this topic)
@Chacko, 1conoclast,
Why are these two not related?? Both of them are pretty much the same case. There is a work of art either a cartoon or movie. There is a small section of people that is offended. So its basically up to the people if they want to see it.
But no one thinks of secretly distributing those cartoons because some people will be hurt. Similarly no one should think of rubbing Rajputs the wrong way and forcibly distributing Jodha-Akbar in states like MP and Rajasthan, but this is precisely what 1conoclast is suggesting.
And chacko you are wrong, there is no prohibition on downloading those cartoons.
So the moral of this story is you need to be careful when you are living in a pseudo-secular glass house. The more stones you throw at others the more likely you are to get damaged by them.
@2S,
You have some guts dude!
2S
016
1:29 am
@MM - I missed the sarcasm, so I take it as a compliment. Thanks dude.
1conoclast
017
2:03 am
2S…
Just a little harmless sledging man…
As for the “bleddy” moderates statement, even I don’t fully agree. That was put in there kinda out of context, & out of frustration at our not kicking the sena’s backside!
mm…
Not related because one is a religious issue & the other one is a non-issue! The events in Rajasthan, MP & now Maharashtra are attempts at tampering with history & have nothing to do with Rajput pride! Are Rajputs protesting in MP & Sangli as well? No. It’s hindutva forces making a nuisance of themselves as usual (so much for mahesh’s holier than thou stand!)!
So the issues are very dissimilar, but regrettably, I’m with you on the ban thing! All bans are alike. Which is also why I keep equating hindutva to the taliban! On a separate note, if you can get your hands on the cartoons, do let me have a look at them.
If you would like to know the reason behind those protests, “ask & you shall receive”.
Arun Sundar… Thanks.
Smartopinion
018
3:36 am
@1conoclast
“But like I’ve said before, the Christian community in India is the model of good behaviour. ”
So go ahead get converted to Christianity it very easy I can forward you many links to missionaries. Then pack your bags and leave India and move to so called ADVANCE WESTERN COUNTRY? Why waste time in backward India? Also ask your parents to convert to Christianity.
We will all worship your Christianess and print books and freez your act and teach this history to non-Christians kids…
I can give U thousands of Hindu Role models who are not only better than Christians but better than the Muslims all over the world. But I guess it will be like this saying in Hindi whose meaning is somewhat like this.
“Don’t waste time reading Gita to a donkey”
Smartopinion
019
4:18 am
@ZERO CONOCLAST
You are talking about a NDTV show, when was the last time NDTV represented any news from the Hindus point of view. All COMMIES have become minority in their own country called as West Bengal which technically should not be a part of India but should join China or if they don’t like it then East Bengal (i.e. Bangladesh)…
NDTV is owned by Prannay Roy (Using corrupt Kangis in late 80s) whose wife is Radhika Roy who is the sister of Brinda Karat who is a CHINA supporting COMMIE. Let’s not even talk about Brinda’s husband Prakash CARROT oops Karat who did a U turn on his recent Anti-America stand and also is now the first COMMUNIST in the whole world who is a CAPITALIST. Ha Ha Ha.. I rest my case..
You know what would be interesting..
A show in which Javed, Shabana and Foorq Sheik is invited. And they are asked what are the the rights of the TERROSIST under Indian Constitution to express their descent using Bombs that killed several 100 Indians just in 2007. Would be interesting to hear the LEGAL EXPERT FAROOQ’s opinion on freedom of expression to kill people…
The modern mullah
020
4:25 am
@1con,
What may be a non-issue to you might a very real issue for someone else. For example the cartoons were non issue for denmark but issue for your friends in Saudi Arabia.
Also per definition, secular govt. cannot interfere in case of blasphemy. So I can say anything about someone’s god and govt. should not act against me.
1conoclast
021
3:34 pm
smartopinion…
I am TIRED of your inability to understand what is being said & your ability to misconstrue it as an attack on your way of life!!! Kya problem hai yaar? IQ pachaas ki hai kya?
I am only saying that the Christian community has been the model of good behaviour in this country. I am not saying that anyone should convert to Christianity! How are you linking this to conversion?????? In which dictionary does good behaviour=conversion???
Kitne insecure ho sakte ho yaar??? Koi limit hai tumhari insecurity ki?
1conoclast
022
3:59 pm
smartopinion…
Your IQ really is only 50!
NDTV held a debate inviting the originator of the entire mess, the so-called patron of the karni sena on the show! The views were not NDTV’s but of the participants! NDTV gave the Rajput (or if you want to call it Hindu) voice a platform for debate. How does that make NDTV partisan???
This only goes to show how you are willing to hate everyone that isn’t rabidly, vocally pro-hindutva!
NDTV ne hindutva voice pahunchane ka theka nahi liya hai!!! They’re the most respectable of the channels in India. Even their Hindi channel is unbiased & classy!
Your juvenile barbs at the Karats are not contributing in any way to your cause. According to you, anyone who isn’t rabidly pro-hindutva is not worth a mention. Strange stance. One I can’t respect.
(Farooque Shaikh is married to Rupa, a Hindu Jain. You can seek his opinion on anything you like.)
In my smarter opinion, mallu-bengali, Jain-Muslim intermarrying types with a western education who stand up for a secular India are far superior to your types who have no claim to national integration fame or even to a western education!
1conoclast
023
4:06 pm
mm…
When I said non-issue, I was referring to the Rajput jingoism.
The cartoons were a core issue because they went against a very core concept of Islam. Depiction of God, the Prophet or his family is forbidden in Islam as a measure against idolatory. The cartoon isn’t the issue.
Smartopinion
024
8:41 pm
1conoclast
“(Farooque Shaikh is married to Rupa, a Hindu Jain. You can seek his opinion on anything you like.)”
Oh OK. Farooque wife Hindu, Amir wife/fiancee HIndu, Sharukh’s wife Hindu.. Is that a conincidence or MM (Moderate Muslims prefer their wives not to wear Hijab).
1conoclast says
“One thing that these jokers don’t realise is that their protests are in vain. They’ve blown this thing out of proportion. ”
He He He He.. You along with your NDTV goons are giving space and time to this issue. By discussing this (and PROVING YOURSELF HOW YOU ARE RIGHT ALL THE TIME) you are blowing it out of proportion..
2S
025
10:06 pm
Jodha Akbar got the go-ahead in MP now.
1conoclast
026
10:19 pm
smartopinion…
If you read your last comment objectively, realization will dawn on you that:
When you have nothing significant to say, it’s best to say nothing at all.
But responding to your silly jibe decently (there are a million indecent ways to respond to what you just said), I’d just like to say this, “Since there are only men like you available within their own, the women have decided to go wherever educated, secular men are available.” Happy?
2S,
Thanks for the update. Courts had to intervene?
Kafir
027
1:36 am
The cartoons were a core issue because they went against a very core concept of Islam. Depiction of God, the Prophet or his family is forbidden in Islam as a measure against idolatory.
Fair enough - all religions have certain beliefs that members of that religion are expected to follow. But why should Westerners and non-Muslims be forced to follow or adhere to core concepts of Islam? And the violent protests and burning of embassies that followed were not an insult to Islam, right?
1conoclast
028
2:11 am
Kafir,
Valid point. People of other religions are not expected to respect Islamic beliefs.
Sorry, correction. They’re not expected to follow/adhere-to those beliefs. They’re expected to respect them. If Muslims hold something very dear, they should ask their brothers sweetly & get it instead of resorting to violence.
Unfortunately, I’m not Islam obsessed so I wasn’t following the protests closely. If embassy burning did happen, it is truly deplorable & yes it is an insult to Islam.
All of this however, does not change the fact that compared to the this, the fuss over JA in Rajasthan, MP & Sangli is a non-issue & equally deplorable.
I am actually waiting for my worthy opposition in this forum, to begin condemning these protests. Will you?
Kafir
029
10:22 pm
They’re expected to respect them.
Why?
Respect is earned, not forced on people. Basically, what you’re saying is “I respect xyz. So everyone else must respect xyz too, irrespective of whether they find it respectful or not. Otherwise I’ll get angry.”
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/02/08/wise/
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/02/15/plot/
sanjay
030
2:36 pm
Seems like another back-patting writeup by a Chrsitian on the lines of “Oh, how civlised we are because we worship the True God.”
“But like I’ve said before, the Christian community in India is the model of good behaviour.”
You must be referring to this kind of behaviour:
“Protestors belonging to Christian organisations staged a noisy demonstration in front of Prasad’s IMAX theatre in Hyderabad and broke the booking counter’s glass panes, forcing the management to stop screening the controversial film The Da Vinci Code on Friday afternoon.
A group of 50 volunteers of All India Christian United Front gathered in front of the theatre, holding placards and raising slogans. Theatre management cancelled the show that was to begin at 3.15 pm. Incidentally, Prasad’s IMAX was the only theatre to start showing the film today, as other theatres in the city and elsewhere in the state could not take up screening at short notice. The theatre had planned a single show until Sunday and three shows a day from Monday. The theatre management said they had full bookings for today’s matinee show.”
http://in.rediff.com/movies/2006/jun/23davinci.htm
sanjay
031
2:41 pm
NDTV is a channel funded by communists. Pranoy Roy is married to Brinda Karat’s sister Radhika. What kind of unbiased hearing do you expecte there on HIndu issues?
1conoclast
032
2:43 pm
sanjay…!!!
waapas aa gaye bhaiya…? bahut badhiya! kuch zyaada hee shanti ho gayi thhee yahaan…
Chacko! kuch mithai vithai ka intezaam kiya jaaye bhai? sanjay itne dinon baad waapas aaaya hai!!!
By the way, if your link is accurate, the events are truly deplorable. But even you will admit that this is the exception more than the norm.
1conoclast
033
2:49 pm
sanjay…
As usual you have nothing new to say, and are here only to put your propaganda on various websites like a virus. Don’t think one can’t see thru you.
What you’re saying has already been countered eloquently. Please start reading downwards from here:
http://mutiny.in/2008/02/27/jodhaa-akbar-on-ndtvs-the-big-fight/#comment-48569
Response here:
http://mutiny.in/2008/02/27/jodhaa-akbar-on-ndtvs-the-big-fight/#comment-48652
So did Prannoy Roy get funding for NDTV as “dahej”? That should count as support for Hindu customs that everyone else is decrying, shouldn’t it?
sanjay
034
5:55 pm
thx for the welcome.
“But even you will admit that this is the exception more than the norm.”
Oooh.. exception exception eveyrwhere.. not a rule in sight.
Inquistion was an exception. Slavery of blacks was an exception. Killing Hindus in Tripura is an exception. Planting the flag of True Lord in heathen lands is an exception. Bribing hapless ignorant people to convert is an exception.
Killing Red Indians was an exception. Sending pagans to hell is an exception. Calling non-believers satan worshippers is an exception. Banning Yoga in churches is an exception. Killing Australian abroginies is an exception. Racism and segregation is an exception. Vandalising cinema halls after release of Da Vinci Code is an exception.
OOOH.. .the great torment of Holy Christians… there are exceptions everywhere but not a rule in sight…
Tell me, your “loving” Lord will boil pagans in oil after they die because they have the cheek not to worship him and he has taken a load of offense over their temerity. Is that also an exception? Or is that a rule?
1conoclast
035
8:46 pm
sanjay…
I don’t have the inclination to do this all over again. Did you not read this link?
http://mutiny.in/2008/02/27/jodhaa-akbar-on-ndtvs-the-big-fight/#comment-49233
Read & Learn.
sanjay
036
12:00 am
Your religion or any other religion for that matter which condemns non-believers to hell and considers them inferior will not get my respect. Such “religions” have no right to exist and have been the cause of horrendous bloodshed in history. Who need s this foriegn crap when there are enough inward-looking and peaceful religions in India.
1conoclast
037
2:41 am
sanjay…
I’m not arguing with you. Don’t get me wrong. You may be a genuinely nice guy in real life, but your attitude to anything non-Hindu is disconcerting to me.
I’ll leave you to your own devices.
unbiased
038
10:08 pm
Hey!
just stumbled upon this space,
re: the Jodhaa Akbar issue, i think it’s portraying a tampered version of Indian history (or at least that’s the thought people have), so I guess they are justified in not wanting it to be shown in theaters, coz it hurts their sentiments. Acc. to them, Mughals were invaders/ foreigners like the British .
Anyway, it’s the duty of the people concerned to check the veracity of the movie. I mean, something to do with a country’s history shld be verified for accuracy!
I have to commend the acting / art / scenes though, otherwise…
1conoclast
039
12:27 pm
unbiased,
Acc. to them. But not according to history.
Acc. to me all people living on the Indian landmass are foreigners. Life didn’t originate on this landmass. The early humans migrated here & set up base. I hope you agree with that…
unbiased
040
10:48 pm
dude, the world is not ideal. the way you look at it, there should not be countries, borders and every one should be a world citizen, which is not the case. We do belong to countries, and do have politics …
Mughals were invaders to India like the British, and more so, they did not apparently treat the people well and were known for their intolerance - therefore incorrect to paint them in such a good light in the movie and convey a wrong idea to the people - tampering with history ! It’s like painting Osama Bin Laden as a hero and asking the world to keep quiet !
I mean I’m not sensitive to the telecasting of Jodhaa Akbar, it dosent bother me… but i do understand the feelings of those who do have a problem, and respect it. It’s good to try and think from their point of view once in a while.
Even the PBUH Mohd cartoons were a nuisance.
Chirp
041
11:36 pm
A comment on the movie itself: The movie was heartening on two accounts.
1. A big ticket movie on Indian history, it brought our history back to the consciousness of many a youth, who seem to be distanced from culture, history etc. Perhaps moviemakers will see economic justifications in making movies based on history.
2. Also, the attempt on the part of the movie maker to portray that: in that era, the ruler perceived and appreciated the need for a secular central govnmt. And took some bold steps towards it.
1conoclast
042
2:49 pm
unbiased…
The world isn’t ideal, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be. Why else do you & I & others keep struggling to improve the human lot, world peace, unity etc?
We MUST strive to make things as close to ideal if not ideal! Living in the real world also means contributing to make it a better place. We have murders & rapes in the real world. What should we do? Live with them or try & improve the situation. We have anti-North Indian & before that anti-South Indian riots in Bombay. Should we let it be or strive for justice?
Think about it…
As for whether the movie depicted history inaccurately or not, that depends on what you believe. History is witness to the fact that India’s 2 greatest kings were Ashoka & Akbar, not only in terms to extent of Empire but also in terms of being secular rulers who did things for their people. In that respect, the movie has not tampered with history. It has depicted Akbar as a great emperor who felt for his people. Unless you “think” that the truth is something else… Then I wouldn’t call you unbiased anymore.
You haven’t answered my earlier question: If the Brits & the Turks were invaders, then who is indigenous to the Indian landmass? Did the human seed sprout on the Indian landmass or did people migrate here & set up base? Answer me that.
Chirp,
Agree with you wholeheartedly. The filmmaker & the movie deserve a lot of kudos for doing that!
1conoclast
043
2:52 pm
And by the way, Ashoka in all probability had Greek blood in him. His ancestor Chandragupta Maurya had married the daughter of the Greek general that Alexander had left behind.