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Feb252008
We shall live to the end of times, for we have done no wrong
I am not a celebrity writer and hence the kind of responses I receive to my articles, which are mostly on Hindutva, National or International issues are very few, nothing more than 20-30 mails, on average, per day. But many of the mails I receive have a common question to pose. It’s ‘What do you feel is the future of Hindus.’ The question, initially, I thought, considering my low response rate, was inquisitive to few. But with each passing day I am forced to believe that many, especially the youth of this nation, are eager to know as to what do Right-Wing writers like us have to say in this regard.
‘Will we survive the subjugation, would we be united against the oppressive political forces that which is keen to divide the Hindus for vote bank politics?’ I was asked by a student at a recently concluded NSS’ National Integration Camp at Moodubidri, rather too pryingly. The answer was not readily available to me either, and I had to apologize to that young and enthusiastic looking lad.
Of all the things, the debt which the world owes to our culture, now rightly called as Hindu, is immense. Taking country with country, I bet, there is not one race on this earth to which the world owes so much as to Hindu, who is mostly patient and mild. ‘The mild Hindu’ sometimes is used as an expression of reproach; but if ever a reproach concealed a wonderful truth, it is in the term, ‘the mild Hindu’, who has always been the ‘blessed child of God’, as said by Swami Vivekananda in his maiden speech at Colombo after returning from the US, where he had attend the Parliament of Religions.
Civilizations have arisen in other parts of the world too. In ancient and in modern times, great ideas have emanated from strong and great races, wonderful ideas have been carried forward from one race to another. In times, ancient and modern, seeds of great truth and power have been cast abroad by the advancing tides of national life; but mark you, my friends; it has been always with the blast of war trumpets and with the march of embattled cohorts. Each idea had to be soaked in a deluge of blood. Each idea had to wade through the blood of millions of our fellow beings. Each word of power had to be followed by the groans of millions, by the wails of orphans, by the tears of windows. These, in the main, other nations have taught; but India has for thousands of years peacefully existed.
There was activity in this land when even Greece did not exist, when Rome was not thought of, when the very fathers of modern Europeans lived in the forests and painted themselves in blue. Even earlier, when history has no record, and tradition dares not peer into the gloom of that intense past, even from then until now, ideas after ideas have marched out from her, but every word has been spoken with a blessing behind it and peace before it. We of all nations of the world have never been a conquering race, and that blessing is on our head, and therefore we live.
Let us seldom forget those times when at the sound of the march of big Greek battalions the earth trembled. Vanished from off the face of the earth, with not even a tale left behind to tell, gone is that ancient land of Greeks.
There was, also, a time when the Roman Eagle floated over everything worth having in this world; everywhere Rome’s power was felt and pressed on the head of humanity; the earth trembled at the very naming of ‘Rome’. But the Capitoline Hill is a mass of ruins; the spider weaves its web where Caesars ruled.
There have been other nations equally glorious that have come and gone, living a few hours of exultant and exuberant dominance and of a wicked national life, and then vanishing like ripples on the face of the waters. Thus have these nations made their mark on the face of humanity.
But we continue to live, and if Manu came back today he would not be bewildered, and would not find himself in a foreign land. The same laws are here, laws adjusted and through thousands and thousands of years; customs, the outcome of the acumen of ages and the experience of centuries, that seem to be eternal; and as the days go by, as blow after blow of misfortune has been delivered upon them, such blows seem to have served one purpose only, that of making them stronger and more constant.
Let us also not forget, that we Hindus have never preached our thoughts with fire and sword. If there is one word in English language to represent the gift of India to the world, if there is one word in English language to express the effect which the literature of India produces upon mankind, it is this one word, ‘fascination’. It is the opposite of anything that takes you suddenly; it throws on you, as if, a charm imperceptibly.
To many, Hindu thought, Hindu manners, Hindu customs, Hindu Philosophy, Hindu Literature are repulsive at the first sight; but let them persevere, let them read, let them become familiar with the great principles underlying these ideas, and it is ninety-nine to one that the charm will come over them, and fascination will be the result. Slow and silent, unseen and unheard yet producing a most tremendous result, has been the work of this calm, patient, all-suffering, spiritual race upon the world of thought.
So I can say it with conviction that we Hindus shall continue to live without fear of being perished from the facet of the earth, should only we get organized. For we have all the moral right, as well as reason, to live to the end of the world. The organization of the Hindus is being done, thanks to the wonderful people at the Rastriya Swayamsevak Sangh. We need conviction and need to stay united against the evil forces that is committed to spark mutual collision, in the name of conversion, liberation, reservation and many.
The old proverb ‘United we stand divided we fall’, is a very apt proverb in this regard. Let us continue to bear it on the top of our thoughts.
EDIT UPDATE The author has responded to the comments in his new post here which was also submitted to Mutiny but was not published as it did not meet the editorial guidelines of the blog.
The views expressed in this post are those of the writer and are not necessarily endorsed by Mutiny.in
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The Modern Mullah
001
11:16 pm
Very rightly said, we survive because we do no wrong and we try to speak the language of logic. Its no wonder that the genius of people like Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is so widely recognized in the west. and advaita vedanta is so popular among scientists in developed nations.
I have my own doubts about the survival of Hinduism in India though. The educated younger generation is not bothering to read more about about advanced concepts in Hinduism and is merely content at scoffing rituals practiced by some.
Raj
002
11:21 pm
hey mahesh…. llik u i firmly believe that Hinduism is eternal.. but how wd u stop the reservation juggernaut… seems lik everyone today wants to b defined by his own caste cos of reservations…. ppl are fighting to get a sc or a st status… is RSS doing any activities to stop this… if we cant stop this atleast can we do something to promote hindu ideology among all the castes.. the way i forsee it is that there wd b a mass exodus to buddhism if sumtin is not done soon…
Venkatesh Sridhar
003
11:36 pm
Dear Mahesh,
This post of yours got me started thinking and as I typed out a comment to this, I felt that it needed a post of its own. I have it online here at http://www.venkateshsridhar.com/religious-fundamentalism-well-thats-what-it-is-its-funda-is-mental/
I have asked a few questions and I would appreciate if you would be able to answer them for me.
Regards,
Venkatesh
2S
004
11:48 pm
Let us also not forget, that we Hindus have never preached our thoughts with fire and sword.
What do you have to say about the violent attacks that have been sponsored by the pro-Hindu right-wing extremists in the very same name of Hindutva that you are suggesting here? Can you say that organizations such as the VHP are terrorist organizations and not Hindu nationalist movements?
We need conviction and need to stay united against the evil forces that is committed to spark mutual collision, in the name of conversion, liberation, reservation and many.
“True unity” is when Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, and every other religion existent in India and outside India can live together in communal harmony and rub shoulders with one another on an equal level were the only deciding factor is ‘value’ or merit.
There are a lot of teachings from Hinduism that I am really indebted to the religion for. The idea of vegetarianism, for instance, that it’s wrong to kill an animal, is not something that Christianity or Islam preach and that’s great about the Hindu religion. At the same time, Christianity teaches a lot more compassion towards all beings, and does not have the ‘caste’ system that Hinduism constantly reminds you of. Islam has some great teachings too - the best of the lot is how it forbids alcohol because it intoxicates the mind. When there is such a nice, diverse cultural mix, how do you expect one to subscribe entirely to one ideology?
Enforcing a national idea on people will not get us anywhere. If Hindus feel their religion is coming under threat they are entitled to do whatever it takes within their national rights to protect it. But if a Hindu movement thinks about enforcing it on someone else and telling people that the Hindu religion or the Hindutva is the only way to achieve true national integration and unity - is ridiculous as there are direct conflicts with each religion.
This is why there is something called “secularism”, to separate the national issues from religious issues, to separate the State from the Church or Temple or Mosque, and only through that will real, long-lasting sustainable unity be achieved. Pity a certain people with smart opinions, and a certain modernized maulvi, and our old friends will jump up and tag us as pseudo-secularists because we do not scream when a Muslim launches an attack (which is a baseless accusation, unless of course my aforementioned friends were subscribing to the Indian Muslims RSS feed as opposed to Mutiny’s).
You quoted Swami Vivekananda, who has spoken both in praise as well as critically of Abrahamic religions. I have learnt a lot from Swami Vivekananda’s teachings but will not quote him here because, as Arun Shourie rightly says in his article here, “stray quotations cannot be set up to counter the entire life and work of such a man” and “the more you lean on Vivekananda, the more he will recoil on you”.
I would also like the readers to read this article by Mohammed Elmasry to understand more about what I’m saying.
Smartopinion
005
12:22 am
@2s
It’s stupid to compare Right Wing Hindus with Right Wing Muslims.. Here is the proof.. This TIME NO LENGTHY PARAGRAPHS. JUST WATCH PROOF..
@2S After going through these links do you think Hindus would not be right Wing? If not then tell me how can you stop this? And please no philosophy mumbo jumbo.. Tell me practical answers after watching these links…
youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo
youtube.com /watch?v=MuCLC8kjWCI&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=x5t5EqWX92k&feature=related
youtube.com/watc h?v=yMztM0Z7BYE&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=V4Zv3BUmwqs&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=K vjvNScmTQA&feature=related
The Modern Mullah
006
12:35 am
@2S,
I thought we had a long discussion about this topic in the other forum. I pointed out more than 100 places in Islamic scriptures which preach violence against non believers, yet you choose some out-of-context verses to claim that secularism and adherence to constitution is all that is needed in India. OK, let me give you a scenario in India where the country breaks up and its all within constitution.
SCENARIO: Muslim population explodes to 60% by following 4 wives and infinite children concept. We have a devout Muslim PM who fully believes in his books. Pakistan sends Jihadi fighters (all Muslims). Our PM refuses to send Indian army to defense as books prohibit one Muslim from fighting another. PIL is filed in supreme court that PM is mixing religion with state. Unfortunately according to constitution, a decision to war is to be made only by executive. India is conquered and thats the end of our secular constitution.
Agreed this scenario seems remote at present. Can you tell me why this can’t happen?
2S
007
1:18 am
@Smartopinoin
I had a look at those videos. My first reaction was - yawn. Seen it before - first-hand too, doesn’t move me or impress me. They are not hte ‘Muslims’ I refer to.
You want practical answers without philosophy? If the answer was so easy, ’smart’opinion, I would be in Ms. Patil’s shoes and not her. The practical solution is secularism and zero tolerance to any religious violence, whether it’s hindus or muslims doing it’. Fair enough? No Muslim violence means Hindus are not tormented? No Hindu violence means Muslims are not tormented? Have a uniform secular body to govern it. How difficult is that?
Someday, someone will knock sense into you suggesting that the majority of “Hindus” and “Muslims” in India are peace-loving and not violent. As a result, there is no reason to entertain any extremist force at all.
@Modern Mullah
For a moment I was thinking I would respond to your comment tomorrow as it will take me a good day to recover from the laughter that your 60% population explosion idea evoked, and more importantly, the immature use of the 4-wives funda before understanding what it is.
Mullah, looking at comment, just get the feeling, you should be writing b-grade Bollywood film scripts. I can nudge you towards a few directors who might like your idea.
Smartopinion and Mullah - tell me honestly - are you saying there is no way to make peace between Hindus and Muslims? If you’re saying that, and suggesting that Muslims have no place in India at all, you ought to be stripped of your Indian passports right away for violating the basic right of equality and tolerance towards all religions.
Why don’t YOU suggest a viable practical solution to unite Hindus and Muslims, besides Hindutva OR Secularism?
Oh, by the way, Mullah, which book did you read that prohibited one Muslim from fighting for another? Which PM of India has not sent a Muslim warrior to the border for a fight against the Pakistan army in the past?
Mullah, read this link to know about polygamy in Islam. How many Muslims you know have married four times?
Smartopinion
008
3:54 am
@2s
“Why don’t YOU suggest a viable practical solution to unite Hindus and Muslims, besides Hindutva OR Secularism?”
The last sentence is the Gist of my argument.. Why do you insist that Hindus and Muslims should unite?.. Why this necessity?… There is no need for any untiy ‘Cos nature will laugh at you when you try that…
You Chalta Hai attiutde so conveniently accepts the violence and hatred of the Mosque teachings. Show me any video of a violent teaching by Hindus to hate Muslims during peace time (no riots)..
You refused to answer my questions in my previous post and here it is in brief..
If an elected Hindu politician needs to plan for the progress of his/her consitutents especially the women section of the population how can she/he go about to doing that.
Is she/he has to plan on the religious lines or is she/he has to plan on 21’st century Human Right laws?
@2s says
“are you saying there is no way to make peace between Hindus and Muslims?”
Does Muslims opposition to UCC by the All India Muslims Board is a Secular Position.. Why are muslim women owned only by muslims politicians. Why this Sharia based laws are a pre-requisite to govern this section of population.
Its only the Hindu Right wing or left who challenges the wrongs of the Muslims society. After all there are no Hijab wearing Hindus who need to evolve…
@2s says
“are you saying there is no way to make peace between Hindus and Muslims?”
And why should there be even such a talk when on one side you have Jihadi ISI Pakistan and another side Bangladesh who left no room for Hindu minorities.
And lastly Pseudos always try to EQUATE MUSLIMS WITH HINDUS and they have to stop that.. People can live together and still have difference of opinion bounded by law.. There is no need to EQUATE HINDUS WITH MUSLIMS. One is a 5 times praying Friday going person while no need to discuss about the Hindu…
One insist everything by Allah while the other insists on a critical enquiry into nature which resulted into discovery of science.. One is looking backward way back in the past while the other is open minded, scienctific, critical and most important evolving…
Why did Javed Akhtar became ATHEIST? Probably some RIGHT WING HINDU MUST HAVE INTRODUCED REAL ISLAM TO HIM.
@2s
“The practical solution is secularism and zero tolerance to any religious violence, whether it’s hindus or muslims doing it’.”
He He He.. LOL LOL LOL I pity your intellegence.. Take Pseudo Kangis and imagine their zero tolerance for religious violence.. When I try imagining that I see, Haj Subsidi to Mecca where Hindus are not allowed, First Right to India’s resources, Partition of India and now Kashmir and also 55 crores, Right to govern women by Sharia… No tone of Lets be together from Islamists…
Pseudos like you living in UTOPIA destroyed this country and are still doing that.. Since Kangis cornered Hindus for the sake of Muslism votes now this history has to be reversed.. Nature is begging for a change and yes it’s already happening and @2S you cannot even stop that even if Government of India stripes my passport ‘Cos I know Pseudos have the attitude of WHO CARES… If they had the guts there would be no pending border issues with both China and Pakistan…
I wonder SRK and Amir and now Saif Ali Khans have Hindu fiancee/wives, Is it by co-incidence or whether they were running away from the obvious that is hurdle to freedom of Thought…
@2S you keep doing your Secularism and in 10000000000000000 years a Moderate Muslim would be Sikular but by that time there may not be any ISLAM.
Sanjukta
009
4:27 am
I won’t start this comment by a rhetoric ‘Dear’ because the right winged people piss me off.. I find it difficult to even make friends with them… but why such strong reaction against them…
Because this whole agenda of trying to fix problem of the mankind with ‘my religion’ and ‘your religion’ is ridiculous to me…
There was this line in Rang De Basanti, and since it wasn’t censored by CBFC, am hoping it’s ok to quote that here, “ek pair kal pe te dooja pair aane waale kal pe tabhi to hum aaj pe mut rahe hai” (we have one feet on yesterday, one on tomorrow and that’s how we pee on today) befitting for people who live in history’s lost glory.
True there was a time when there was no Greece or Rome but India was standing, but then there was also a time when there was no Greece, Roam or India there were dinosaurs and dragons.. so? Big deal… can we stop living in the past and move on…your peaceful history doesn’t justify your violent present, today you talk about Hindutva, tomorrow you’ll kill people in the name of Maharashtratva, then Delhitva…you already are actually…
God / Religion is the sole cause of so much blood shed in the whole world, most religious extremists have been guilty and now the Hindus must join the band wagon too… thus Hindus too must take up the weapon and turn violent. And why? To save Hinduism of course, to save our lost glory, our great culture…well, save ‘lives’ first will you…
There are things that endangers the mankind, poverty, health, environment, ignorance, corruption, how would religion, be it any religion, address these ground level issues?? Will Hindutva feed the hungry?
“United we stand divided we fall” For ages we stood united, yes, time when there was no Greece and Rome we were united, its only recently when the right winged parties (getting political here, coz you so proudly declared your political allegiance) unleashed their pure nation theory on the country, when they started contesting elections on the basis of a manifesto which promised to build a certain temple on a certain piece of land of all the things… that we stood divided.
It is only when a fear of losing my religion is being unnecessarily forced upon me that I start hating other religions. Unnecessary because (a) I don’t lose or gain my religion with the movement of a foreign hand waving a magic wand at me, it is something I believe in and practice and I DON’T need no body telling me which religion is mine, what is good and what i must follow. Let me decide that. (b) Even if I do, big deal.
We don’t need no RSS to “organize” (read mislead, divert) the country men for an irrelevant issue, we need scientific / social / economic development, we need to bridge the gap between rich and poor, between upper and lower caste, between genders.
“The organization of Hindus being done…We need conviction and need to stay united against the evil forces”
Against who? What evil forces? Who is planting the seed of divide here? And who are your Hindus btw? Enlighten me, do you consider the people from Manipur, Mizoram Arunachal Pradesh as Hindus or are only the Ram and Hanuman Bhakts known as Hindu?
As rightly pointed out by Venkatesh (in the link he left above), Hinduism is a way of life more than being a religion. With all the Gods that are found in various shapes, sizes, colors, purposes its more of an industry to be honest.
RSS has neither the right nor the capacity to decide what is being Hindu, invent a fanciful Hindutva and then thrust it upon the rest of the country.
So, need of the hour Mr. Mahesh, as 2s already pointed out, is to separate the state from the religion. Let me go ahead and make an extreme statement, India is a secular state, well I think India should be an atheist state. Don’t talk about Gods when you are building a nation, talk about humans.
PS. Tech@Mutiny, I didn’t move to my own blog with this post because I am a mutineer too, consider this as my new post, but feel free to suggest alternative if it’s too long for a comment.
TECH RESPONSE: Edit’s consideration, not our’s.
The modern mullah
010
6:01 am
@2S,
What is so laughable at my scenario? Muslim population has already increased from around 11% to 20%. The 4 wives are allowed by Indian laws in accordance with the constitution that you keep yapping about. Is there something to laugh about suppression of Muslim women as allowed by Indian law?? Some mullahs say that they won’t condemn killings of Indian soldiers by terrorists as they are fighting Jihad, all according to constitution. Is that laughable?
“Oh, by the way, Mullah, which book did you read that prohibited one Muslim from fighting for another? Which PM of India has not sent a Muslim warrior to the border for a fight against the Pakistan army in the past?”
Thats easy, Muslims not killing each other is a central tenet of Islam.
Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
There has been no PM of india who was a devout Muslim. What I presented was a scenario of what might happen if the constitution were blindly followed.
“Why don’t YOU suggest a viable practical solution to unite Hindus and Muslims, besides Hindutva OR Secularism?”
Thats easy, just follow the steps I have outlined
1) Revive the Islamic reform movement started in the 18th century.
2) Pass laws against Islamic practices and teachings not compatible with secular modern society, like 4 wives, not respecting other religions etc.
When we can do this for Hindu practices like Caste system and untouchability, why not Islam?
3) Make conversions by force or inducement illegal. This should also apply to emotional pressure by family members to convert. When we can treat incest as rape by emotional pressure, why not forcible conversion??
Does anyone in Mutiny have the guts to advocate the above? Does not look like it, most appear to be happy by chanting secularism and closing their eyes.
Sanjukta
011
6:23 am
@Smart Opinion.
You called 2s a pseudo quite a few times, I was wondering, and I always do, why do all the right winged people leave comment under a PSEUDO name…smart opinion, Modern Mullah et all. Nevermind.
You talked about UCC, for those who are not aware, it’s the Uniform Civil Code which means all people in India to have a single law for personal affairs of civil nature like marriage divorce, inheritance etc.
Tell me, did you ever try to draft UCC in your mind? How does it look to you? Does it look like Hindu Family Law being forced upon people of any and every religion living in India? Or is it going to be a balance between the various personal laws, sort of get the best of all world? Because trust me there are indeed good things under all personal laws.
A Hindu marriage is a sacrament, a union for 7 birth, that is why a Hindu widow has no right to remarry, in fact she should be burnt alive along with their Husband (call that Sati). A Muslim marriage on the other hand is a social contract. The groom have to pay a price in consideration of which the bride agrees to marry him.
That reminds me, you mentioned “Hinduism is evolving.” You are right, it indeed is. So it was only when thousands and thousands of Widows were killed, that we evolved and abolished Sati daha pratha. Islam, on the other hand always thought marriage is merely a social contract so a widow can always remarry so they never killed a Muslim widow.
The Hindu marriage is still not compulsorily registrable, while Muslim marriage was always done in writing. A nikahnama (pre nuptial agreement) is an integral part of a Muslim marriage.
Under the UCC, are we going to get rid of that Sacrament bit from Hindu marriages and accept what it truly is, a social contract? Are all Hindus ready to get rid of the most important ritual required to solemnize a marriage, that of Saptapadi (7 rounds / steps) and are all Muslim ready to get rid of the “Kabool hai” bit and are we as a nation, Hindu Muslim etc. alike ready to replace all our religion based rituals and ceremonies with just “4 signatures and a stamp paper?”
Let me know how many right winged Hindus have discarded the Hindu ceremony and went for a SMA instead. Dig my post, “Atheism Law and Marriage” from the Mutiny archives to know what SMA is.
Bigamy is prohibited amongst Hindus but allowed in Islam. That’s your worry. Go look up the data on how many Hindus actually practice bigamy and even better, go figure how many Hindu wives have happily accepted bigamy. (I’ll put some links later on mutiny may be). So, how about we have a balance here and say we allow 2 wives and 2 Husbands to all.
Muslim be not governed by Sharia and Hindus be not governed by Manusmriti. Sounds good?
UCC is an impossibility by all means. If the right wing must insist they must be insisting on making all personal laws similar to Hindu Law.
You sum up the RSS / Hindutva intentions well when you said this “Pseudos like you living in UTOPIA destroyed this country and are still doing that.. Since Kangis cornered Hindus for the sake of Muslim votes now this history has to be reversed..”
Tell you what, united we shall stand, no matter how much you try to fill our hearts with hatred for each other, how much you try to divide Indians on the basis of religion, because at the end of the day law and order would prevail, not all Modis would go scot free. I shall still value my muh bola Muslim brother’s opinion more than I value my real first cousin, and he shall still be excited to visit me on Raksha Bandhan because we have great faith in the country’s Constitution and love for each other.
On a lighter note, duh why was I being worried of my comment length…
Karmadude
012
6:32 am
Well written post, but it seems like when one puts oneself up on a high pedestal, it’s easier to impart praises on oneself, and quiet convenient to not look within, and forget ones own history.
Now, I am not a historian, but from what I remember from Indian history, we had our own turmoils, dynasties, empires, and gruesome wars. So, I am not sure where you are getting the whole “Hinduism is peaceful” idea from history!?
Historically, we have had plenty of opportunity to come together as Hindus, but we never have. One example I can think of is that of Ashoka. Territorially he ruled over a bigger India than today, and yet he went with Buddhism. I wonder why? If there was anything peaceful in India, it has probably more to do with Buddhism and Jainism, than Hinduism.
Another thing that bothers me about the Hindutva Brethren, is that they seem to have adopted concepts from other religions: like end of the world, one God, devil, so on; so, if I may borrow from the Hindutva Brethren vocabulary, seems very Pseudo-Hindu like to me.
And finally on the whole idea of we need to get behind Rastriya Swayamvinaash Sangh to safeguard and preserve Hinduism, why?
Hinduism has survived far worse than what it faces today without a united controlling entity like the RSS, so what makes you so sure such an entity is going to safe guard and do wonders for Hinduism?!
If you have forgotten history, then let me remind you: Buddhist Ashoka, Muslim Mughals, and Christian British; they all ruled pretty much the whole of India, and guess what? Without the Rastriya Swayamvinaash Sangh, Hinduism has survived, and it has probably become stronger than ever before, and more stronger if you factor in all the religions which came out of Hinduism.
If RSS is the door-to-door insurance sales man, then Hindus would like to politely decline the offer, gently nudge you out the door, and slam the door shut!
no blog no bullshit
013
9:27 am
fight people, fight! fight in the name of religion till u perish!!
2S
014
9:38 am
@SmartOpinion - now that you mention that you’re not looking for unity at all, I get your message loud and clear - thank you very much - now that I realize where you’re coming from I won’t even bother responding to anything you say because you have a few fundamental issues that pitifully need to be dealt with.
@Mullah - you obviously haven’t read the link I gave you earlier, it would do you a world of good if you read it. We have the guts to advocate your “steps” but unfortunately we don’t have the stupidity to do so. Anywhere, here are the responses to your steps:
MM: Revive the Islamic reform movement started in the 18th century.
2S: Why? I can call for the revival of any damned movement, give me reasons.
MM: Pass laws against Islamic practices and teachings not compatible with secular modern society, like 4 wives, not respecting other religions etc.
When we can do this for Hindu practices like Caste system and untouchability, why not Islam?
2S: The Caste system and untouchability has a direct hit on human rights unlike the four-wife rule. It’s not that a Muslim can marry one woman - wake up the next day and marry another - no, there are clauses and there are clauses for a reason. If you expect the other religions to learn Hindutva you ought to go and figure out why they’re saying what they are instead of calling it blasphemy.
And “not respecting other religions?” — since you seem to be aware of the Qu’ran, you might’ve come across a certain Surah called Surah Ka’afir (Disbelievers) where it clearly says “to you your religion and to me mine” which suggests that it is wrong to condemn any religion. If Muslims are doing it on a mass-scale it’s wrong. I also notice you’ve not talked about Christianity at all, and you keep pinpointing Islam.
MM: Make conversions by force or inducement illegal. This should also apply to emotional pressure by family members to convert. When we can treat incest as rape by emotional pressure, why not forcible conversion?
2S: Shows how insecure you are and concerned you are about conversion. If indeed the philosophy you are preaching is so inviting and welcoming as Mahesh says when he says this: To many, Hindu thought, Hindu manners, Hindu customs, Hindu Philosophy, Hindu Literature are repulsive at the first sight; but let them persevere, let them read, let them become familiar with the great principles underlying these ideas, and it is ninety-nine to one that the charm will come over them, and fascination will be the result. Slow and silent, unseen and unheard yet producing a most tremendous result, has been the work of this calm, patient, all-suffering, spiritual race upon the world of thought. then why are you concerned about conversion in the first place? And how do you “ban” conversion? It is the federal right for any citizen of India to take up whatever faith he wants to.
As far as Muslims killing other Muslims, let me tell you something, in any religion, taking the life of another innocent being is forbidden anyway - as far as war is concerned, the fight is between two nations and it becomes entirely irrelevant if you are a Muslim or a Hindu or a whatever in a war. Can you name a single Muslim soldier in the Indian army who has “refrained” from killing a fellow-Muslim on the enemy’s side?
Your 60% scenario is still funny, unless they take to the streets humping every human (or animal) out there, there is a very little chance that they will shoot up to those numbers. That’s still funny, do consider the Bollywood request very seriously if you’re sticking to your idea, you have conviction in it and that could get a director interested.
2S
015
9:42 am
@Karmadude - to a large extent I am indebted to Buddhism for the teachings of peace they have imparted to this nation, even if it is argued that it has been born out of Hinduism.
@Mahesh - await your responses with bated breath.
2S
016
9:46 am
@SmartOpinion - one last comment to shatter your miserable dreams, if I had a “chalta hai attitude” I would not be spending this much time on this blog OR staying up at 4.00 am to respond to your comments. You’re right, pseudo-seculars have the “who cares” attitude.
I don’t. I’m not a pseudo. But you won’t get it. Such facts are beyond your infinitesimal ability of thought.
Smartopinion
017
10:26 am
@2S
Why can’t you get it @2S? Why is Mecca and Media prohibiting Non-Muslims in that city? If you are saying that Hinduism is as bad if not more than Islam then why this difference..
Now don’t say that this is irrelevant to the discussion. You are equating Hinduism with Islam so tell me any one Muslim country which had a minority leading with its highest post.. This is proof enough of this non-sense of EQUALITY..
I think U did not read my post correctly. I said HINDUS AND MUSLIMS NEED NOT BE EQUAL BUT COULD LIVE WITH THEIR DIFFERENCE BOUND BY LAW.. REPEAT BOUND BY LAW..
The fact of the matter is a Muslim can never be equal to a Hindu and hence a Hindu should not be forced to be Equal to a Muslim in the name of Secularity..
Both religions are way part that YOU CANNOT FORCE THEM TO BE EQUAL.
In UNITED STATES THE STATE AND RELIGION ARE KEPT SEPERATED AND THAT’S WHAT WE NEED. YOU CAN CALL IT A SIKULAR CONSITUTION AND I WILL CALL IT A HINDU RASHTRA…
But ask that to ALL INDIA MUSLIM BOARD WHO HAS THE AUDACITY TO REJECT SUPREME COURTS DECISION.
I want a situation in INDIA WHERE NOBODY CAN HAVE THE AUDACITY TO DO THAT…
AND 50 YEARS OF PSEUDOGIRI HAS LED US TO A PARTITIONED COUNTRY WITH A LINGERING KASHMIR PROBLEM FOLLOWED BY A DISPUTED BORERS WITH A NEIGHBOUR LIKE BANGLADESH WHO CAN SOMETIMES KILL OUR SOLDIERS… No PSEUDO CAN FIX THAT..
You Secularism is a joke and tell that to the BOMB BLAST SURVIVOURS OF JUST 2007..
Smartopinion
018
10:44 am
@2s
“I don’t. I’m not a pseudo. But you won’t get it. Such facts are beyond your infinitesimal ability of thought.”
What’s your position on KOSOVO A NEWLY FORMED COUNTRY LAST WEEK WHOSE MAJORITY POPULATION IS 2 MILLION ALBANIANS. AND 90% ALBANIANS in the Province of Kosovo ARE SUNNI MUSLIMS WHO SEPERATED FROM SERBIA WHICH WAS A CHRISTIAN MAJORITY.. SAME PROBLEM WITH YUGOSLAVIA.. Why Did’nt the Alabanians did Pseudogiri and tried to BE EQUAL TO THE SERBIAN CHRISTIANS IN THEN NAME OF EQUALITY.
@2S It’s you who will never understand nature.. You and your buddies are in denial… You get bits and peice of minor issues in Hinduism and you make a moutain out of a mole hill and compare it to the fundamental issues of Islam and that realy looks FUNNY rather than Intelligent….
Lets see the Litmus test of your Pseudo Giri
a) And what’s you position on Kashmir
b) What’s your position on Kashmiri Hindus staying as refugee in their own motherland.
c) What’s you position on Kashmiri Muslims taking help of RIOTS KILLINGS TO DEMAND A SEPARATE LAND JUST BASED ON MAJORITY AND RELIGION Why don’t you go and tell them to use a constitutional path.
Vow Jai ho @2S ki.. One person has the option of Bomb blasts and others should follow constitutional amendments… Hi Hi Hi.. I like that..
2S
019
10:52 am
Kosovo is irrelevant - you want to discuss it, drop me a mail, let’s talk.
Responses to your other points.
a) Kashmir belongs to India (as does Pakistan and East Pakistan)
b) That’s wrong. But that’s not because of “Muslims” it’s because of “Extremists”
c) Again wrong, and again, it’s “extremists” and not “muslims”. Someday when I have the ability to do it, I’ll tell them to use a constitutional path too.
Smartopinion
020
10:53 am
@2S My Youtube link which bores you, mentions the fact about this FANATIC MULLAH who says “You have to live like a state within a state till you take over”
Can your PSEUDO BRAIN EXPLAIN AS TO HOW KANGI PSEUDOGIRI can tackle that?
2S
021
10:54 am
@Smartopinion - I was, am, and sitll against the partition. Partition happened because secuarlism failed. Because the Muslim extremists who tagged along behind Jinnah at that time didn’t give it a chance. Now you right-wing Hindus want to do the same. Go on breaking the country, we’ll be left with nothing.
You keep using the word pseudogiri, it’s getting tiresome. I might be tempted to stop replying to your accusations if you go on with these lame attempts, not that it would affect you at all.
Smartopinion
022
11:01 am
@2S OK I can drop the ‘P’ word but that doesn’ change any facts..
“c) Again wrong, and again, it’s “extremists
Smartopinion
023
11:05 am
@2S Here is ny finak argument… I have tried to reason to some of Moderate Muslims in similar debates and some of them CANNOT BE RESONED WITH.. That doesn’t mean all of them cannot be. But I don’t want Hindus to behave in such a way that they are TOO SOFT ON THE FANATICS..
I am going to take a brake and we can continue this later…
snigdha
024
11:24 am
What are we fighting for here? That is my 1st question. Is the concern more about fear of losing one’s identity of being a Hindu and thus we need to unite against evil forces? If the answer is Yes, in that case please relax. We have survived for thousands of years and even today we constitute one of the major religions of the world. We have seen and welcomed and amalgamated with many other religions and cultures of the world which came to India for Good, Bad reasons. We have survived all of it. So why panic by thinking we need to unite?
No one is denying the fact that India’s contribution to the world is huge but this also is a fact that Indian culture could travel the world over because we allowed others to come in and then take back the good things from us. Hence, if we are considering that only way to save India or her culture is to unite all Hindus will be an inappropriate thing to say.
No religion in the world teaches hatred. It is us, human who interpret the writings in any religious books to suit our need. When we are quoting the evils of any religions it is very important to keep in mind the socio-economic and political reasons behind such writings. 4 wives were allowed to help the women who became widow due to many wars. Caste system was there not to create division but to organise the community for socio-economic reason. We humans as opportunistic as we can get, manipulate everything and understand things the way we would want to understand it.
UCC is something which I support but as sanjukta has put it, it is a very good idea but equally impossible for everyone to accept it because religion is a very sensitive issue and religion is something we have grown up with just like we have grown up with our names, family values etc. The 1st official ceremony, after a birth certificate is a mundan or baptising ceremony (quoting an example). So it is very difficult to take it away from people hence it is very important for any nation to be separate from religion and let it be a matter of personal choice.
In case of any war in India, I really don’t know what is going to happen if we have a Muslim leader because I cant predict the future. Looking at the current scenario, chances are we may not even go on a war using arms and ammunitions. We would either be killed by a Nuke or there will be biological warfare.
Thinking that a Muslim leader may not send army to save our country is doubting their loyalty. Whereas in every step of the history, be it World War I, II or Kargil war, they have fought for our safety as courageously as any other Hindu soldier. ( I am quoting the past because the past has been quoted in the post). Treating other religions with suspicion is the 1st seed of division that we can sow.
May be suspecting any act of terror as a “Islamic” is fashionable. If we are thinking about Kashmiri pandits, we also have to talk about Ayodhya and Godhra. Come to think of it, I don’t think we are “mild” Hindus any more. The rapes that have been happening in Kashmir are committed by Indian Army many of them being Hindus.
It is equally fashionable to give subsidies to Muslim pilgrims and other benefits to any other religion because in India Hindu bashing is equal to being secular.
My take is, if we are talking about “United we stand and divided we fall” and if the unity here is of unity of Hindus, then I would like to understand how are we going to benefit out of it.
Religion is very personal let it remain that way, I think we have more serious problems to deal with than feel insecure of losing our cultural, ethnic identity because that has not happened and that is not going to happen. And if we HAVE to talk about being united as Hindus in that case let the true Hindus unite because people who claim to be Hindus and Muslims do not even know what it is being a true Hindu or a true Muslim. For me Hinduism is a way of life in which Geeta teaches me, my soul belongs to no one and nothing belongs to my soul. So what am I fighting for?
chacko
025
11:46 am
@2S, rest those blessed fingers of yours. We need them for the finals. These guys are insecure - I bet they are the ones who have a problem with Jodhaa Akbar as well.
Sanjukta
026
12:07 pm
Surprised and upset that Smart Opinion in all his smartness couldn’t put any more opinion on my UCC arguments.
And Mr. Mahesh is yet to give me an answer on, Who are your Hindus….
@2s Chacko is right, these guys are like a broken record, no point trying to talk logic here.
@Snigdha Really liked the way you put it..
Sanjukta
027
12:08 pm
@smart opinion…
There are enough templs in India where non hindus are not allowed. I am very confident you already knew that.
As a matter of ucking fact there are Hindu temples in India where a HINDU Women is not allowed and your argument is why in mecca media Non Muslims are not allowed…
I don’t know what are you talking about…
2S
028
12:13 pm
By the time they listen to yoy how many innocent Hindus should die and in how many BOMB BLASTS…
Right, and Muslims don’t die in bomb blasts.
SmartOpinion, your credibility as a commenter just took a plunge like the Sri Lankan batting worm today.
ManojVasanth
029
12:21 pm
I Liked Mr.Chacko’s comment. Guess we talk about religion only when we are in India. If we go out of this country; we don’t find any religions and keep ourselves shut. Because, we want to survive. Here every damn thing is granted. Common Man to Cult. Irresponsible use of freedom of speech.
| Balu |
030
2:15 pm
I can see a lot of misconceptions out here..
1> hinduism was never a peaceful relegion we used to slaughter animals during yagas and kings used to be non-vegetarians.. Concepts like Vegetarianism became a part of hinduism due to Budhist influence
2> Yes Hinduism was very tolerant.. our relegion had lot of negatives which has reduced over the ages due to improvisation on part of the people…
3> Hinduism cannot opt to remain stagnant, as a matter of fact nothing can… Yes hinduism will survive if we keep evolving with the ages and if we remain stunted by (in) our ‘past’
4> Do we need an RSS/VHP in our country? Yes we do not to unite Hindus like mahesh thinks, but to remind us of our past once in a while.. of course they go over board almost all the times.. but its the responsibilty of the people to take in what is logical, moderate and leave out the extremism…
5> So I can say it with conviction that we Hindus shall continue to live without fear of being perished from the facet of the earth, should only we get organized. For we have all the moral right, as well as reason, to live to the end of the world.
Yes we need to get organised but not under the banne of a political party, because politics and relegion is a toxic cocktail! Ideals might be high but it is easy to misuse the power of the masses when under a political party…
6> @2S About Godhra and other riots… Are hindus alone to be blamed?
@2S you said “Enforcing a national idea on people will not get us anywhere. If Hindus feel their religion is coming under threat they are entitled to do whatever it takes within their national rights to protect it. But if a Hindu movement thinks about enforcing it on someone else and telling people that the Hindu religion or the Hindutva is the only way to achieve true national integration and unity - is ridiculous as there are direct conflicts with each religion.”
But wasnt this movement also started by hindus, who like you said, felt their religion was under threat…? Are you trying to say they were being silly to have thought so?
I personally feel hinduism is under threat, from not just other religions, but also
from political parties which try to get mileage out of hindu sentiment.. Yes we need to unite not under the banner of a political party, not under a two- faced sword, but yes under our ancient beliefs, by sticking on them and adapting them according to the changing times
ramanathan
031
2:28 pm
Yawn!…
fight! fight! fight!
in the name of religion, fight! (NBNB, i agree!!)
all we know is to fight. it has been done before, and it will go on forever. on the streets, on paper, on tv, on the screen, now on the blogs… we are moving forward with the backwardness we will always have…
1conoclast
032
2:37 pm
HEY!!! I was wondering how such an interesting discussion escaped me!!!
But then I read through the comments & realized that I agree with 2S..
YAWN!!! More of the same right-wing hindutva antics as opposed to intelligent debate!
Sanjukta… I salute your mental & moral make up. You are deserving of being called intelligent life on any planet; you’re deserving of being called human. Can’t say the same for others (the ones who can’t stand) here!
Mahesh, I agree with you. Hinduism is a peace-loving, highly evolved religion at it’s core. But 4000 years? have allowed people to corrupt it beyond recognition. There have been admirable cleansing attempts, but even these seem to have lost their way. The need is for a return to the core philosophies of peace, love, understanding, karma & dharma.
As for the future of Hinduism, I would like it to survive in it’s purest form, YES! But these hindutva types are only causing the image of Hinduism harm. If we really want Hinduism to survive & be respected worldwide, we MUST defeat these forces.
What we don’t realize is that the more evil rears it’s ugly head, the closer it is to defeat. Just look at the Jodhaa Akbar controversy. Yesterday there was a debate on NDTV’s The Big Fight with Ashutosh Gowarikar on the panel. He & his film are getting more publicity than ever before. The karni sena is losing the battle & they aren’t even realising it!!!
These right wing hindutva sites that malign Akbar’s secular nature & paint anything Islamic in a bad light are doing nothing but wake people like us up to their existence. We will now fight them in every forum, in the press, on TV, on blogs, in schools & colleges, with street plays. And we will win. Let’s face it, we’re the more educated ones, we’re the more resourceful ones, we’re the more globally connected ones. There’s no doubt that secular Indians like us will defeat hindutva ultimately.
THAT is why it’s important for Hinduism to distance itself from hindutva!
Let’s limit Ram Rajya to within Hinduism.
2S
033
2:45 pm
@Balu
I don’t blame Hindu extremists alone, I repeat, I blame all extremists who kill in the name of religion wherever they are. I am okay with right-wing Hindus protecting their religion if they think it is under threat (which is nonsense, if you ask me, but whatever makes them happy) but resorting to violence because another faction did it is ridiculous considering that the mass Muslims do not subscribe to violence at all. Even if incidents happen, it doesn’t mean one should retaliate, neither Hindus or Muslims or Christians or anyone.
Like I said, unite under a common national agenda and not under a religion, spirutual ideology or any such thing as it will never be possible.
@Ramanathan - I’m sorry if you see this as a fight, I see it as a discussion between two groups with extreme opinions. Given a choice between keeping mum on the issue and speaking out, I’d rather speak out.
2S
034
2:47 pm
I’d want a certain modern bunch of mullash and few with smart opinions to read this link too.
| Balu |
035
2:59 pm
I am okay with right-wing Hindus protecting their religion if they think it is under threat
What kind of defending are you talking abt? I mean how are they supposed to defend themselves?
You also said, “no-one should retaliate when something happens”
My question is why do things happen in the first place? How does it happen.. even when there are people like you and me who ant peace?
1conoclast
036
3:11 pm
2S… like Chacko said… give your poor fingers a break. (That is how it’s spelt by the way).
Your target audience will not read that link. Even if they read it, they will not agree with what is being said there. They’ll come up with a list of extremist misdeeds in return. They can’t see beyond their hate. They’re INCAPABLE of looking at the truth. They can only see what has been fed to them.
It’s a waste of your time.
2S
037
3:32 pm
@Balu - because there are idiots who think that there is no need for peace and unity in the first place.
| Balu |
038
3:36 pm
hmmm okay
But i am no letting you off the hook until you give me answer fo this
am okay with right-wing Hindus protecting their religion if they think it is under threat
What kind of defending are you talking abt? I mean how are they supposed to defend themselves?
2S
039
4:17 pm
Read my entire comment Balu, it says:
I am okay with right-wing Hindus protecting their religion if they think it is under threat (which is nonsense, if you ask me, but whatever makes them happy)
What exactly is your question there?
| Balu |
040
4:22 pm
My question s, how do you expect them to ‘defend’ themselves without any weapons? That is in case hindus are being attacked by any other religion!
1conoclast
041
4:29 pm
What is it that you define as attack? That is the question that begs asking.
| Balu |
042
4:47 pm
@1conoclast
attack - to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with:
Ex - He attacked him with his bare hands.
(source: dictionary.com)
1conoclast
043
4:52 pm
What kind of attack are we talking about here? Is conversion an attack? Not so according to the definition you just put forward.
So again, what do you define as attack, wrt Hinduism?
| Balu |
044
5:12 pm
verbal attack - yes
forced conversion -yes
The definition says with or without a weapon.. the defition does cover conversion. It sets upon in a forceful way (psychologically)
1conoclast
045
5:27 pm
Well, in that case, you only need to look at Gandhiji. “De dee humein Aazadi bina khadag, bina dhaal…”
Use those “weapons” if you must.
Forced conversions in this day & age? I’m not so sure.
What kind of psychological pressure could anyone apply on you for example to convert?
I’d recommend you read this on conversion:
http://www.anniezaidi.com/2008/01/dilip-asks-about-why-people-are-so.html
2S
046
5:32 pm
@Balu
It depends on what defence they’re talking about. If they’re worried about conversions then taking up arms will not help, instead, helping people understand Hindutva would.
If you’re going to physically attack people for making them convert, you’re wrong. Also, overpopulation has to be addressed via education, you have to educate the less-educated Muslims and tell them that increasing their numbers will not get them anywhere. It’s true and logical. Most educated Muslims will not have 10 offsprings.
| Balu |
047
5:43 pm
@1conoclast
Thanks for the link. nice post.. yes I was referring to the same psychological pressure he mentioned… how situations make a person become a nun or change religion etc..
@2S
Most educated Muslims will not have 10 offsprings - Don’t agree.. come to calicut.. I can proveu wrong
Also, overpopulation has to be addressed via education, you have to educate the less-educated Muslims and tell them that increasing their numbers will not get them anywhere. - The problem is (as i see it) education is the just the foundation… Its upto the person to build a mansion or a hut.. a good ex (off track) would be terrorist who was working in a firm in Bangalore. he was highly educated.. so education unfortunately is not the solution.. its the kind of people one is exposed to…
1conoclast
048
5:57 pm
Mahesh… (& All)
I read your post in it’s entirety & am HORRIFIED at some of the factual inaccuracies (& some of your claims) in it! Allow me:
-I hope you’re not claiming that Indian civilization is the oldest in the World as this is factually inaccurate. The oldest is actually the civilization of Sumer in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq & Syria). Oldest surviving religion by the way is Zoroasterianism.
-How exactly are the ancient lands of the Greeks & Romans gone? The sites still exist, the countries still exist, people still live there on the same land. Venus de Milo stands at the Louvre in glorious tribute to the Greek civilization. In contrast, Indian sites like Lothal, Mohan jo Daro etc are largely ignored by Indians themselves! Don’t get your point…
-MANU???????? The same guy who said that the punishment of a shudra if he hears a word of the Vedas is to have molten lead poured into his ear???
-The word that foreigners use to describe India is not “fascination” but “circus”!
-”the wonderful people at the Rastriya Swayamsevak Sangh”?????? YOU’VE TOTALLY LOST IT AT THIS POINT MAN!
At this point I am tempted to say that like all civilzations declined, so did our earlier civilizations. It may not necessarily be a source of pride to have hung on to 4000 year old beliefs. It may be what has stopped us from progress as compared to the other civilizations. In this light, I would say that Iqbal took poetic license with his “Unaan, Misr, Roma sab mitt gaye Jahaan se… Ab tak magar hai baaqi naam-o-nishan humara…”
1conoclast
049
6:12 pm
balu…
I think you missed the point of that post totally! The point of the post is to ask why people are so afraid of conversions.
I have a hypothesis that I have still have to research: Vivekananda drew Indian masses away from Jainism & Buddhism. This is something that some of the dirty hindutva proponents boast about. This is conversion too, isn’t it? So again, why do people have a problem with conversion?
2S
050
6:31 pm
@Balu - are you telling me that in today’s day and age that most of the educated Musilms in Kerala have a large number of offsprings? If yes, I’d like to know more about that - in all honesty.
| Balu |
051
7:08 pm
@ 1conoclast
I did understand the point of the post.. the comments though went off the point! oops
I agree that what vivekananda did was also conversion.. and do people have a prob with conversion?
Its something to do with the world
The followers of all religions have an inferiority complex, let it be christianity, islam or hinduism… So whenever someone from their religion they tend to take it too personally.. that is the issue i guess
1conoclast
052
7:43 pm
Yes… It is somewhere there. It is “fear”. Fear is the enemy. We must make western philosophy part of our curriculi, to understand these things, to broaden our horizons, taking care to pick only the good from there, not the bad.
The Modern Mullah
053
8:18 pm
@Dear Sanjukta,
I would have given detailed explanations to your questions but the arguments you have made are so easily countered that a judge in court would simply laugh at them.
“Tell me, did you ever try to draft UCC in your mind? How does it look to you? Does it look like Hindu Family Law being forced upon people of any and every religion living in India? Or is it going to be a balance between the various personal laws, sort of get the best of all world? Because trust me there are indeed good things under all personal laws.”
UCC does not even need to touch Hindu or Muslim family laws. We can come up with something entirely secular, the only problem I see is Muslims not accepting it.
“A Hindu marriage is a sacrament, a union for 7 birth, that is why a Hindu widow has no right to remarry, in fact she should be burnt alive along with their Husband (call that Sati). A Muslim marriage on the other hand is a social contract. The groom have to pay a price in consideration of which the bride agrees to marry him.”
For your information, Sati was banned more than 100 years ago and it is legal for Hindu widows to remarry. Being an attorney(I doubt you are one) you should check what you write about legal matters. Your comments are unbelievable, they confuse legal definitions with hearsay. You are right about the Muslim marriage being a contract. Critical point missed is that a Muslim marriage needs a wali or guardian to be complete. So its pretty much like the Wali selling his daughter for the right contract.
“That reminds me, you mentioned “Hinduism is evolving.
1conoclast
054
8:37 pm
Get this madman out of here!!! He seems to think that Hinduism is the “opposite of Islam”. This discussion has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with Hinduism. What possible relevance can Islam have here?
Except that this vaanar is Islam-obsessed…!
And what’s up with Mahesh…? Why has he chosen not to respond?
sidharth shankar, Putting Hinduism into perspective
055
9:29 pm
Dear Mahesh,
Those who raise questions about the survival per-se of the Hindus have probably got it completely wrong. There can be no denying the fact that Hinduism has very strong survival instincts. Over the thousands of years that it has been in existence, it has actively experimented with various kinds of intellectual and spiritual defence mechanisms and we would not be completely off the mark if we say that it has as good as mastered the art of survival. But if we are to really take a decision about our attitude towards Hinduism then we must look at it from a wider perspective. We must try to analyze the nature and consequences of the relationship between the India civilization and Hinduism. What has the Indian civilization gained out of its adherence to the Hindu faith?
Every civilization has a few characteristics which help it attain a more tangible form. State, art, music, literature, religion etc are some of the tools used by the civilizations the world over to help it design solutions to the various kinds of needs of its people. State has a particular role, it is needed to organize and to protect the masses and their socio-economic lives in a particular way. It is the institution which finally ensures the non-existence of fratricidal wars as happens in the case of the stateless tribal societies. Similarly arts, culture etc too are required. Religion too is supposed to perform some vital functions. So, when Hinduism as a system has to be evaluated then it must be evaluated on the basis of one and only one criterion, has it really performed the functions it was expected to and is the Indian civilation richer or poorer by flaunting it?
So, survival as such has never really been a concern for the Hindu faith except perhaps under the dark medieval ages personified by the Mughal empire. True that Hinduism was under attack even during the British Raj. But, during the Raj, Hinduism was certainly not considered to be posing any serious threat to the existence of the empire. On the contrary, because of the fact that it was Islam which was the ruling faith in India when the Europeans came calling, it was Islam which assumed the role of the so-called ‘hostile native faith’. Over the years, because of the various battles that the East India Company had to wage against many Muslim rulers, they started perceiving Islam to be the embodiment of the enemy faith. The events of 1857, only reinforced this deep rooted image of Islam in the minds of the British.
Later on, because of the ‘Divide and rule’ policy, the British also gave so many concessions to the Hindus. Yes, it is also true that they also gave so many concessions to Muslims as well. But, Hiduism, as a faith never really had to come face-to-face with the brute might of the ruling faith as it did during the Mughal times.
So, it continued to survive. But, has anyone ever really bothered to check the quality of our survival during those days? What were the Hindus? Since the day, Islam came to India and right up to the day when the British left India, Hinduism has continuously lived as the defeated faith and the Hindus have had to live with this stigma. A question arises, in almost all other countries that have given birth to great religions, one of the roles of the religion has always been to unite all the people under one single umbrella. This was the face, the united and strong face, which other faiths presented to the outside world when it came in contact with them. Take Islam as an exmaple, it was Islam which united the inhabitants of the Arab peninsula under one umbrella, gave them a mission and this in turn propelled the faith to all corners of the world. No single region wanted to cede its spiritual space to Islam but they were not left with too many choices. Same was the case with Christianity and to some extent Buddhism in South-East and North Asia.
Hinduism certainly leaves a very bad taste in the mouth when it is weighed against this standard. This is perhaps the only faith in the world which did not regard a large section of its own population as even worthy of normal human contact. One could have accepted it as yet another heinous example of a behavioral aberration even though it was on the part of the entire society. But the fact that such deplorable practices had sanction from certain dark corners of the world of scriptures makes it hard for us to give it the kind of benefit of doubt that is being presently sought for it. In fact, such was the attitude of the elites of the Hindu society towards a certain segment of itself that this segment secretly welcomed the arrival of the Muslims and the British. Even today, because of the bitter memories of the past, a large segment of the Hindu society is not amenable to the idea of being integrated under the wider Hindu umbrella. They are rather happier gathering under an Ambedkarite or a Lohiaite umbrella.
The point is not to try and judge who is right or who is wrong. The equation is very simple, as long as we do not present a unified face to the outside world, we would be permanently condemned to a status of slavery in one form or the other. Anything that acts as a hindrance in unifying the Hindu society must be jettisoned even if it happens to be the brand name called Hindu. The point to be kept in mind is that Hinduism is just one the systems of thought invented by our forefathers long time ago and there is no need to be hopelessly romantic about it. We need to accept a few things and then try and decide whether we need to carry a few burdens of the past into the future and deliberately slow ourselves down or to get rid of all such tendecies and glide effortlessly into the vast possibilties of the future.
There is no denying the fact that Hinduism has achieved wonderful things especially in the realm of thoughts. In deed, it was because of the impact of this system on our way of thinking that we managed to become one of the most prolific producers of knowledge in the world. However, we also need to remind ourselves of the fact that we also have three other great native religions available to us as Indians. Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism all are offshoots of the Hindu faith designed specifically with the intention of providing the Indian society an alternative to Hinduism along with all its associated evils. So, we do not really have a shortage of products when it comes to competing in the international market place for faith. Hinduism is just one the faiths that India has to offer to the world. There is no need to be fanatic about it. What is needed is an open attitude towards everything otherwise we too would suffer the intellectual and social decadence of the Islamic world.
Its been a rather long letter. But, I thought it was necessary to respond properly to the issues raised by you.
with warm regards,
sidharth shankar,
Hyderabad
1conoclast
056
12:23 am
sidharth shankar,
“dark medieval ages personified by the Mughal empire”??? I hope you mean this specifically with reference to Hinduism & not in terms of Indian History…?
“Hinduism has continuously lived as the defeated faith and the Hindus have had to live with this stigma”… VERY dangerous territory sidharth! This is the kind of stuff the mad dogs like arun shourie propagate. It’s not healthy. I don’t think that the 54 Million Hindus living in relative poverty, in illiteracy in India’s villages really care about this stuff… until it is projected as a “Hindu subjugation” by irresponsible Indians!
Care to elaborate?
Rest of your comment seems very well argued, specially the one about the Ambedkarite/Lohiaite umbrella. Will read the comment in it’s entirety & come back to you with more questions if any.
The modern mullah
057
5:30 am
This is my last comment on this topic (to the joy of many people)
@1conoclast,
I was responding to sanjukta, so cool down, not talking anything against anybody here.
@To everyone else,
To see how Hindus flourish when freed from the pseudo-secular chains that exist in India, one only needs to look at how people of different faiths have performed in an open,free and equal opportunity society like the US. According to the pew survey on religions (http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons), the following startling facts come to light about Hindus in the US:
1) Most Hindus belong to the productive working group 25-60, which is the norm for everyone
2) Most Hindus are from Asia (probably India)
3) Hindus and Jews are head and shoulders above others in income. The number of people making above 100K is 43 and 46% respectively, well above the national average of 18% and about three times the islamic average of 16%
4) Hindus are the most well educated of different faiths in the US.
5) Most Hindus (79%) believe in Marriage and have the least divorce rate. They have 1 or 2 children at most and shun the bacterial rate of population growth exhibited by Muslims.
I know that a lot of these factors may not be linked to religion, but think coolly for a second. Hindus MUST be doing something right that they are flourishing in the US.
Sanjukta
058
9:47 am
Modern Mullah Said:
This is my last comment on this topic (to the joy of many people)
Me: Wait, don’t run yet. I’d like to respond to you in a while…
@1conoclast
Wow…such nice words for me…awhat did I d
and Mahesh is not responding because he have got nothing intelligent to say..
I totally loved it when you said Hindutva has awakened us and now we’d fight them in every possible way. Very true.
snigdha
059
11:42 am
@Modern Mullah
1) Most Hindus belong to the productive working group 25-60, which is the norm for everyone
Snigdha:- That is becuase Hindus or Indians or everone in India happily procreated 20 years ago forgetting about family planning and these are the same children who are in their productive age now.
4) Hindus are the most well educated of different faiths in the US.
Snigdha:- So are the Japanese and Koreans and Chinese…SO? If you still feel Hindus (or Indians as you might want to call ) are doing better, well, that could be becuase of their comfort with the English language.
5) Most Hindus (79%) believe in Marriage and have the least divorce rate. They have 1 or 2 children at most and shun the bacterial rate of population growth exhibited by Muslims.
Snigdha:- You must be talking about Hindus living in Metros who want to plan their family. There are other means of controlling number of children and sex selective abortion is one of them.
Divorce Rate:- Well not getting a divorce depends on many factors. Respect in the sanctity of marriage is the last one, belive me. It could be becuase of the stigma attached, children, economic dependence of women or simply becuase Hindu divorce laws are very strict making the entire procedure very lengthy and messy.
Woke
060
12:44 pm
I think each one of us would love to see the Hindu culture and way of life preserved and the see that world recognises its true meaning since it is very much integral to the culture we have developed as a nation. You as an indivudual has every right to propagate this cause.
The greatness of the Hindu way of life (not religion mind you) is that it has been able to accept people from different cultures and religion without ever complaining of losing its identity. The last thing Hindus would need are self-appointed spokespersons spreading hate towards other religions/cultures. This would only lead us to another form of terrorism.
“Enemies and evil forces are trying to eliminate us from the face of the earth” is a common phrase used by Islamic terrorists, Christian fundamentals and idiots like George Bush who doesn’t seem to find anything better to do. Strikingly similar to the message you are trying to deliver here.
snigdha
061
12:56 pm
could not agree more with Woke
1conoclast
062
3:53 pm
mm…
You’re going? Thank God for small mercies! GRTBR!
Sanjukta… na goo mein eent dalo, na cheent tum pe aayegi! Jaane do, achcha hai! The world needs more of us than them!
Hindus prosper even in India. Why are we looking at the US. We should be talking about Dalit progress in India, if it’s allowed to become the free society that the US is. This guy is SO confused…!
1conoclast
063
7:56 pm
MM…
A couple of clarifications:
- Hasn’t “pashchat sabhyata” long been the enemy? How come this praise for the US then?
- Aren’t Hindus in the MINORITY in the US? Can we construe that to believe that Hindus prosper only when they’re in the minority?
- Similarly, weren’t the Hindus out of power during the Mughal era? Didn’t we experience Tansen’s (& apparently Birbal’s) greatness during that era?
The Modern Mullah
064
10:08 pm
Every once in a while some lunatic reads just one line of my post and makes a blanket statement that I am spreading hatred against someone/religion/person etc., forcing me to make another post to a topic I had abandoned.
Just to clarify: I have not uttered a single sentence which shows any religion in poor light. All my comments are perfectly true and unbiased and no, my comments are not rhetoric like George Bush because I can back each of them with proof, unlike GB and his WMD.
1conoclast
065
10:15 pm
C’mon MM… getting abusive won’t help… You can’t mean that!
Anyone from 8-80, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari will be able to see that your comments smack of deep rooted hatred. If you’re saying that you wanna turn over a new leaf, that one can accept, but don’t try & tamper with history…!
The Modern Mullah
066
11:12 pm
(This is definitely my last post on this topic, no exceptions)
Not really 1con, I’m just pointing out some salient features of Islam and showing how its incompatible with modern India. When pseudo-seculars like Sanjukta or Chacko speak out against caste system (which was a feature of Hinduism),idol worship, untouchability etc. I don’t hear people like Woke or Snigdha saying that they are spreading hatred against Hinduism and Hindus.
Why special treatment to these pseudo-seculars when they speak out against some practices in Hinduism?
Is there a provision in the constitution which says that anyone speaking out against some evils of Hinduism is reformer but anyone speaking out against some evils of Islam is a hate monger?
Administrator
067
11:19 pm
@Modern Mullah
Apologies that we had to publish this as a comment as this is the only way we can communicate with you as you continue to remain anonymous.
One of your comments directed at Sanjukta has been moderated and unapproved. Consider this a warning from the Mutiny Admin team to refrain from any kind of personal attack in the future, to anyone who writes or comments at Mutiny. Future such instances will result in us taking the appropriate action.
Regards,
Mutiny Admin Team
mahesh
068
12:03 am
My dear friend,
I am honored to have your such a scintillating feedback, both as bouquets and brickbats, to this article of mine. People were eagerly waiting for my response to their questions. And I instead of answering part believed in answering in full for which I wrote an article and submitted it to Mutiny.in. But somehow I felt as if I was asked to compromise on its contents rather too much and for too unwise reasons. And thus decided to quit the mutiny.in, which I feel has a problem with gaining courage to publish truth. Nothing wrong. There are thousands of sites which comes day in and day out talking of ‘Courage’ and ‘Conviction’. But end of day they are just another ones. This is what I have come to believe about Mutiny.in, I shall be more happy to return if I am proved wrong. By the way answer to your queries is all given and you may read in the article on my site @ http://indiamahesh.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/contentions-unjust-defying-the-allegations-against-the-rss/
This is to assure all my friends that I haven’t run away without any answers. I have been and shall be happy to answer all kind and unkind questions posed against me or my beliefs. I shall not hate you for that, let me promise, I shall just love and admire you the most.
My only and final request with the editorial team is to publish this letter in entirety without editing, for I have written nothing but the truth.
Thank you Mutiny.in for the opportunity endowed upon me.
Though short lived, I enjoyed being here.
May God bless you all.
Godspeed
U. Mahesh Prabhu
1conoclast
069
12:35 am
MM…
The answer is simple. What we protest are actual events.
What you protest is imagined & is propaganda.
Chacko
070
12:36 am
@ Mahesh Prabhu. Take the easy road, run away. It takes courage to debate. We are willing to listen - why can’t you?
1conoclast
071
12:39 am
Mahesh…
I read through (most of) your article. It doesn’t answer even one of my questions.
Can I request you to return to the forum & attempt to answer my questions?
Once you’ve managed that I would be happy to discuss some points in your new article; but before that I must have proof that you will respond.
The Modern Mullah
072
1:07 am
@1conoclast,
None of my protests are against something imaginary, they are all based on fact. Show me a place where my protest has been imaginary and I will modify it.
mahesh
073
1:15 am
Dear Friends,
Thank you so much for your responses. They are too much. I did answer to them in my blog. But still some people are saying that they aren’t happy with the answers, that I have missed theirs. So could you please itemize your questions and send it by email to me at indiamahesh@gmail.com? I shall be so delighted. Responses to your questions shall be positively answered in 10 days.
Anticipating response.
U. Mahesh Prabhu
ramanathan
074
1:23 am
i am not against the idea of mutiny or anyone in particular, but tell me, what courage does it take to debate on issues in the virtual world sitting miles aways from the real problem? none. all of us are on the same boat, unless we get down to the streets and do something. not to say that i do it, but there is no diff between a person who is running away from this forum and someone who is here. it takes no courage to debate here.
2S
075
1:36 am
@ramanathan
The question is not about courage, although you are absolutely true when you say “it doesnt take any courage to debate here”. Totally agree. The question here is, that there are people who feel strongly for a social cause and debate it on forums like these.
I don’t know about you or the others, but I certainly see myself going to the streets and “doing something about it” in the foreseeable future.
The purpose of this blog at the moment is to create the forum, awareness and spark interest in the online world on such topics. How does it help the general public? Right now - in no manner. Our target audience for now has been the online world. Going forward we would like to tie up with NGOs who do offline work, and replicate this forum in the offline world too.
To answer your question Ram, as a Mutineer, I would love to see someone who is not courageous to come out and speak about what he feels for the country rather than run away. There IS a difference. There IS a voice, a potential leader. Leaders make nations and if we can recognize it - and as one thing leads to another - then there is a very benefit, currently intangible and hopefully will be tangible.
Sanjukta
076
1:52 am
@ramanathan
I don’t know about others but NO i am not on the same boat…its NOT another virtual war for me. Because I am NOT anonymous like Modern Mullah and Smart Opinion. To give strong opinions with your real identity takes courage. I have a real blog link there… every details about my life is on that blog, from my pics, to the place i live to what I do for a living… if some one wants to track me down it can be done any day… So much so that even my phone number is available on Google search.
It takes guts to fight this war with your real identity which I have, same goes for all others who comment or blog by their true identity. For us its not a virtual war NO, at least I am ready to take it on streets any day.
1conoclast
077
2:07 am
mm…
They’re all imaginary.
-The links from anti-Islam propaganda websites that you put up.
-Your claims to know things about Islam based on your reference to the above sources.
Anyone who claims to know about a religion by reading up on the net is very very mistaken, and in the words of the famous poem, is a child & needs to be taught!
1conoclast
078
2:11 am
Dear Mahesh,
My questions are listed above in this very forum, one under the other. It shouldn’t be too difficult to find them. You could also click here:
http://mutiny.in/2008/02/25/we-shall-live-to-the-end-of-times-for-we-have-done-no-wrong/#comment-48207
Sanjukta
079
3:42 am
UCC does not even need to touch Hindu or Muslim family laws. We can come up with something entirely secular, the only problem I see is Muslims not accepting it.
Like what? Gimme an example here…don’t talk about theory….and don’t even use that word ‘Secular’ because RSS supporters have gang raped the concept of secularism. You have no respect for other religion whatsoever loving it is distant.
So exactly how would a marriage under the UCC be solemnized…just gimme an example of some thing absolutely secular which also doesn’t messes with the existing matrimonial laws under hindu and muslim personal laws.
Why are you bringing Manusmriti here. Have you ever seen that book in your life? Sharia on the other hand is widely practiced in the Islamic world.
I have, but assuming I have not. So? So what if Manu’s code is not as strictly followed as it used to be till about 2004 (that’s when we passed the amendment to Hindu Succession Act (HSA) and declared Mr. Manu was wrong in denying women the right to equal inheritance). And so what if Sharia is used every day at every step in amongst muslim. When UCC will come both personal laws based on religion woud have to go in its entirety.. no? Or are you suggesting they Sharia must go because there is too much of it every where while the Manu can stay coz its hardly visible.
You keep saying how Islam treats women badly, Hinduism treats women equally bad and so does christianity. At least that’s one area where all religions are united. The fact is gender justice can be achieved even within the personal laws. Like we now have the ammended HSA (although the Hindu women had to wait this long to be treated at par with men, while you were happily guarding the unjust HINDU law made by a certain Mr. Manu) So you see you don’t have to attack the entire Sharia law to save your muslim sisters, just ammend the bit which are un just.
Hindu law on the record is one of the most gender biased law so don’t you pretend to be this messiah of Hindu women. Don’t no religious extremist for that matter claim to be unbiased to women. That’s the fate of women irrespective of religion.
–> If in Islam they have bride price, in Hindu we have the concept of Kanyaa daan, which means the daughter is a piece of property which keeps passing through various stages of ownership through her life. From father to husband to son.
–> The father of a child is legally considered to be the NATURAL guardian of all the silly things. I mean when you can’t even tell if the child is really yours w/o a DNA test, how on earth is it NATURALLY yours?? It should naturally belong to the mother coz that’s where it came out from naturally.
–> Only a son can perform last rites and if you don’t have a son your soul is screwed forever..thou shall never rest in peace unless thou has given birth to a SON.
And you say only Islam is unjust and what not. Even Hinduism doesn’t allow marriage outside religion why do you keep cribbing about Islam.
Lastly, you need not worry about what my muslim friends are doing. You please feel free to spread as much hatred as you can agaisnt them, and 100s of me will fight you wherever you’d go. Like 1conoclast said “your Hindutva has awakened us”. Thanks.
Sanjukta
080
3:56 am
Modern Mullah..
UCC does not even need to touch Hindu or Muslim family laws. We can come up with something entirely secular, the only problem I see is Muslims not accepting it.
Like what? Gimme an example here…don’t talk about theory….
Exactly how would a marriage under the UCC be solemnized…just gimme an example of some thing absolutely secular which also doesn’t messes with the existing matrimonial laws under Hindu and Muslim personal laws.
Why are you bringing Manusmriti here. Have you ever seen that book in your life? Sharia on the other hand is widely practiced in the Islamic world.
I have, but assuming I have not. So? So what if Manu’s code is not as strictly followed as it used to be till about 2004 (that’s when we passed the amendment to Hindu Succession Act (HSA) and declared Mr. Manu was wrong in denying women the right to equal inheritance). So what if Sharia is used every day at every step amongst Muslim. When UCC will come both personal laws based on religion would have to go in its entirety…no? Or are you suggesting the Sharia must go because there is too much of it every where while the Manu can stay coz it’s hardly visible?
You keep saying how Islam treats women badly, Hinduism treats women equally bad and so does Christianity. At least that’s one area where all religions are united. The fact is gender justice can be achieved even within the personal laws. Like we now have the amended HSA (although the Hindu women had to wait this long to be treated at par with men, while all these years you guys were happily guarding the unjust HINDU laws made by Mr. Manu)
So you see you don’t have to attack the entire Sharia law to save your Muslim sisters, if that’s your intention, just ammend the bit which are unjust.
Hindu law on the record is one of the most gender biased law so don’t you pretend to be this messiah of Hindu women. Don’t no religious extremist, for that matter, claim to be unbiased to women. That’s the fate of women irrespective of religion.
-> If in Islam they have bride price, in Hindu we have the concept of Kanyaa daan, which means the daughter is a piece of property which keeps passing through various stages of ownership through her life. From father to husband to son.
-> The father of a child is legally considered to be its NATURAL guardian.. of all the stupid things. I mean when you can’t even tell if the child is really yours w/o a DNA test, how on earth is it NATURALLY yours?? It should naturally belong to the mother coz that’s where it came out from naturally.
-> Only a son can perform last rites and if you don’t have a son your soul is screwed forever..thou shall never rest in peace unless thou has given birth to a SON.
And so we kept procreating till we gave birth to son and made this country the second largest in population.
And you say only Islam is unjust.
Even Hinduism doesn’t allow marriage outside religion why do you keep cribbing about Islam.
Lastly, you need not worry about what my Muslim friends are doing. You please feel free to spread as much hatred as you can against them, and 100s of me will fight you wherever you’d go. Like 1conoclast said “your Hindutva has awakened us”. Thanks.
Smartopinion
081
5:00 am
@Sanjukta
Are you saying that the SO CALLED Hindu laws are really inspired by a Hindu religion text. All the so called Hindus laws which you have mentioned show me which one is mentioned by which Hindu script.. I can give U a list of laws mentioned in SHARIA WHICH THE MULLAHS KEEPdefending everytime we talk about UCC..
Inspiration from Manusmirit and quoting Hindu text is different like sky and earth
And show me which section of Hindu Population is insisting on Hindu laws over anybody else.. Years and years Hindus suggested to get rid of all CIVIL laws but the PSEUDO Kangis were played like a football by the MINORITY MUSLISMS..
Its ALL INDIA MUSLIM BOARD WHO REJECTED THE LANGUAGE AND ALSO THE SUPREME COURT’S OPINION ON REGISTERING MARRIAGE. How conveneintly U forget that.. Tell me one Hindu organization who is opposing a UCC proposal.
BY EQUATING HINDUS WITH MUSLIMS ARE U SAYING THAT HINDUS WILL EXPLODE BOMBS OR KILL PEOPLE TO SAVE THEIR CURRENT HINU LAWS.
And who were the people who designed this constituion. IT WERE THE SAME INNOCENT BHAI CHARA, HINDI CHINI BHAI BHAI, SAMA DHARMA SAMA BHAV preaching PSEUDO HINDUS like yourself.. Yes these Pseudos thought that by having separate laws, minorities will some how ASSIMILATE WITH THE MAJORITY HINDUS.. Yak…
Why don’t you go and talk to the ALL INDIA MUSLIM BOARD about their opinions on UCC. I can give you a link in which one of its BOARD MEMBER wants ALL LAWS IN INDIA TO BE BASED ON SHARIA LET ALONE JUST CIVIL LAWS..
You would be the first person to run when these fanatic Muslims will come after you. I wish somebody in your family should be a victim in the various bomb blasts that happened recently in 2007
There is ONLY ONE SOLUTION TO THIS MESS. STOP MAKING HINDUS EQUAL TO MUSLIMS ON ALL LEVELS IN THE NAME OF SECULARISM. LETS HAVE LIVE AND LET LIVE MENTALITY WHICH IS WHAT THEY HAVE IN USA.
A NEW amended CONSITUTION BASED ON 21′ST CENTURY LAWS THAT UPHOLD HUMAN RIGHTS ESPECIALLY THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN IS THE ANSWER. NOT EQUATING HINDUS WITH MUSLIMS.
And in order to acheive that Pseudo Secularism is not going to work. Moderate Hindus have brushed aside the EVILs of Islam ( Search al-Taqiyya in KORAN) and I can give hundreds of this kinda exmaples.. And please share atlest one eg from any one Hindu script that propagates hate..
Everybody knows that RATIONALITY fails against religious argument. But what if a religion is dis-guised as a Political Cult instead of Spirituality. That is what is Islam…
No form of Secularism can reason or modify these followers… So Stop comparing Hindus to Muslims.. Hinduism is inclusive by definition but Islam needs to catch up and with the current mentality of AIMB there seems to be no light at the tunnel…
If you literraly teach Islam to an educated Muslim at minimum he has to become ATHEIST there is no chance else his/her brain will go mad with all the reasoning which he/she picks up after NOT FOLLOWING ISLAM.
The modern mullah
082
7:11 am
@1con and the pseudo’s on this board,
“They’re all imaginary.
-The links from anti-Islam propaganda websites that you put up.
-Your claims to know things about Islam based on your reference to the above sources.”
All of my links are from this website (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/), if you or your pseudo friends can find at least one imaginary item or one incorrect description of anything in Quran or Hadith, I promise not to write anything about religion for an entire year.
Just to make it clear I agree to the 10 misconceptions about Islam stated in this website.
(http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html)
My problems with the religion are completely different from what is stated in these misconceptions.
1conoclast
083
1:08 pm
Smartopinion…
If your comments were deserving of being read in entirety, I would’ve made the effort & responded to your points one by one.
I only have two things to say to you:
1. Why does any talk of Hinduism lead to your bringing up Islam? Is your brand of Hinduism really that Islam-obsessed? Think about it. Can’t you discuss Hinduism in isolation?
2. The reason Muslims reject any legal initiatives is because they believe that the answer to every question lies in the Quran. They’re not wrong actually. Every religious book has all the answers to life (I think). The problem lies in it’s misinterpretation.
1conoclast
084
1:14 pm
MM…
I’m at that website now. Whatever little I’ve read uptil now doesn’t seem in the least bit incriminating. What exactly do you want to discuss from there?
zamzam
085
2:55 pm
1cono,
“The reason Muslims reject any legal initiatives is because they believe that the answer to every question lies in the Quran.They’re not wrong actually. ”
So why not apply the Islamic Penal Code to Muslims in toto in India? Chop hands if caught stealing, lashes for petty crimes, stoning to death and the works?
1conoclast
086
3:10 pm
zamzam…! You’re back!!!
By all means apply the penal code to Muslims in India! Why only Muslims? Since there’s so much talk about a Uniform Civil Code, let’s apply it to everyone! It’s proved to be very effective elsewhere!
Game?
You can stop reading here. The next question is directed at an audience that you’re not part of.
Q. I am curious to know about the origins of this penal code though. Views are solicited from liberal gentlemen with in-depth knowledge on Islam.
firsttimevisiter
087
12:24 pm
@ SmartOpinion
you said “There is ONLY ONE SOLUTION TO THIS MESS. STOP MAKING HINDUS EQUAL TO MUSLIMS ON ALL LEVELS IN THE NAME OF SECULARISM. LETS HAVE LIVE AND LET LIVE MENTALITY WHICH IS WHAT THEY HAVE IN USA.”
first of all…of all the big history of hindu mythology and great gurus,you chose to give example to amricans …where are the brains dude!!!
wondering why? still? america is one country which has been literally raping all the countries who shows little sign of gas,oil natrual reserves etc… and its happening from early 1900’s …their ecomonic hitmen played a major role ..you know that “parde ke peeche alag hi kahani hoti hai” not to forget iran war,iraq war,training many osamas against russians,african gang wars,indonesia war…DID YOU EVER READ THIS..am sure NOT..because you would never have said “learn from america for LIVE AND LET LIVE” …ANY GOD !! please put some brains in you know whom !!!
and i have told just 5-6% of all that america has done making itself strong ..instead of wasting time on those links of ISLAM(which i saw and were total imaginary) ..i request you to read proper books written on american intrusions(directly/indirectly),how they left countries under developed…left people dead and SAD and ANGRY!!!! i still wonder you never read all this ….
so dont come back commenting on this 5% info ,you please read rest of 95% and then show up.FYI i have read …if you still thinking!!!
you know now i can declare that what all you were replying to @2S and ppl was all imaginary which has made permanent home in your brains and you cant think of anything else because there is no place for it unless you remove some part of your stories which your EGO wont allow and you keep resisting by counter commenting with these lame (yes LAME) reasons.
america’s “live and let live” …gimme a breakk… i am in america right now and been interacting reading the culture,policies,their diplomacy and i would be the last person to agree with you ….
am not going to comment on any of your comments because i know they would be as stale as this one….i can make you understand once and assuming you being in your adults saves my time to say the same thing again else you are declared a KID!!!
1conoclast
088
1:16 pm
Someone claimed in some forum that Bobby Jindal’s success is due to the fact that he’s got some obscure links with Christianity…
I’d like the gentleman’s claims of Hindus doing well in the USA examined in this light. Kuch bhi claim karte hain, bine soche samjhe.
As the saying goes… It’s better to keep your mouth shut & appear like a fool, than to open it & remove all doubt! Applies to both of you.
Sanjukta
089
1:40 pm
@Smart Opinion
I thought I’d not respond to your baseless arguments anymore but then i can’t resist.
Inspiration from Manusmirit and quoting Hindu text is different like sky and earth.
Huh!! Come again. I didn’t get you. Hindu text is what? What is Hindu text? And what is Manusmriti? How are they different. What are you trying to say please explain.
And show me which section of Hindu Population is insisting on Hindu laws over anybody else.. Years and years Hindus suggested to get rid of all CIVIL laws but the PSEUDO Kangis were played like a football by the MINORITY MUSLISMS..
Huh again!! First up, I assume you talking about Hindu PERSONAL laws when you say CIVIL laws. Ok here’s the deal, show me one, just one example of a guy or a gal from the RSS brigade who discarded hindu personal laws related to his marriage and all laws related to the HUF that he belongs to.
With the Hindu being so hung up on their “culture” they would never give up any of their personal laws. By introducing UCC all you are trying to do is make muslims follow Hindu personal laws. That’s what you want. Why would they?
This whole argument is so baseless. It is proven that worldwide the same holy book of Islam is being interpreted differently by themselves. Taliban was also following Islam and Pakistan also follows Islam but not everything is same in these 2 places. Sania Mirza and Diya mirza are also muslim woman and so are the women next door covered top to bottom in burkha but they interpreted their codes of conduct differently and ended up followoing Islam diffenretly.
So it is obvious that you don’t have to bad mouth the entire religion and all their religion based laws in order to criticize the uncivilized laws. It’s not like every muslim in the world is uncivilized.
Yes, at times we find religions laws going against 21st century Human Rights but then SO ARE
Sanjukta
090
2:20 pm
@Smart Opinion
I thought I’d not respond to your baseless arguments anymore but then i can’t resist.
Inspiration from Manusmirit and quoting Hindu text is different like sky and earth.
Huh!! Come again. I didn’t get you. Hindu text is what? What is Hindu text? And what is Manusmriti? How are they different. What are you trying to say please explain.
And show me which section of Hindu Population is insisting on Hindu laws over anybody else.. Years and years Hindus suggested to get rid of all CIVIL laws but the PSEUDO Kangis were played like a football by the MINORITY MUSLISMS..
Huh again!! First up, I assume you talking about Hindu PERSONAL laws when you say CIVIL laws. Ok here’s the deal, show me one, just one example of a guy or a gal from the RSS brigade who discarded hindu personal laws related to his marriage and all laws related to the HUF that he belongs to.
With the Hindu being so hung up on their “culture” they would never give up any of their personal laws. By introducing UCC all you are trying to do is make muslims follow Hindu personal laws. That’s what you want and that’s why it is not opposed by Hindus. BTW it is opposed by feminist organisations if that means anything to you and for your information a feminist mostly don’t have a religion.
This whole argument is so baseless. It is proven worldwide that the same holy book of Islam is being interpreted differently. Taliban was also following Islam and Pakistan also follows Islam but not everything is same in these 2 places. Sania Mirza and Diya mirza are also muslim woman and so are the women next door covered top to bottom in burkha but they interpreted their codes of conduct differently and ended up followoing Islam diffenretly.
So it is obvious that you don’t have to bad mouth the entire religion and all their religion based laws. It’s not like every muslim in the world is uncivilized.
Yes, at times we find some Islamic laws going against 21st century Human Rights but then so are some of the incidents done by the RSS brigade which does not even have religious basis,
-> HARASSING COUPLES ON VALENTINES DAY is one of them.
-> HONOR KILLING done by Rajputs for the mere reason that their sons and daughters fell in love with some outside the caste even though that person was HINDU.
-> Killing / abetting Rizwanur’s death is another.
So don’t you Hindu champions taint an entire section of people as uncivilized and barbaric just because they belong to a certain religion. Civilization is in the minds, not so much in the religion.
1conoclast
091
2:21 pm
Just an update:
Chacko & I have repeatedly tried to get responses from Mahesh to the questions that Secular India wants to ask of him, but up to this point he has been unavailable for public debate.
I hope that this is not representative of his approach to discussions. Discussions entail questions & rebuttal. Anything else can only be construed as bordering on propaganda.
1conoclast
092
2:27 pm
Sanjukta… shaanth gadadhaari Bheem shaanth…!
You’re good!
zamzam
093
4:22 pm
1cono,
Facts first: You simply vanished from the other thread on this blog…..didn’t reply to my response.
This reply of yours is blatantly evasive(standard response) when faced with uncomfortable questions.
High time you read Gandhiji’s “My Experiments with Truth” and get inspired.
1conoclast
094
4:38 pm
zamzam…
Amply clear by now that you’re not only daft but also blind! Your response was met with an uppercut & a roundhouse on this link: http://mutiny.in/2008/02/02/what-about-the-indian-rashtra/#comment-47260
You’re the one who put his tail between his legs & never returned to that post until after I had stated that I’m leaving! Read here:
http://mutiny.in/2008/02/02/what-about-the-indian-rashtra/#comment-47345
Before you open your mouth, learn to use the faculties God gave you… eyes, brain etc…
After Chacko, 2S & I left that post, you 3 communal guys sat down amongst yourself & enjoyed yourselves thinking that that was a valid discussion with no opposition. I don’t want to reopen that discussion again, nor do I want to talk to you as long as your wearing the idiot hat. If you can promise to debate with intelligence, you’re welcome to do so.
As far as my response here is concerned, re-read it if you don’t understand it. Don’t just call it evasive. If you don’t understand it, ask me what I mean & I’ll tell you.
Sanjukta
095
8:54 pm
1con
Thanks. I get that often. Talking about the Gadadhaari Bheem part
1conoclast
096
9:30 pm
Sanju(kta)…
I think most of us on the mutiny do…
The Modern Mullah
097
12:24 am
I have to post again as this is more interesting than other topics on mutiny
@ Sanjukta Madam (respect because I have turned a new leaf),
Sanjukta said:”Huh!! Come again. I didn’t get you. Hindu text is what? What is Hindu text? And what is Manusmriti? How are they different. What are you trying to say please explain.”
Manusmriti is not a religious text. It was most likely written by a sage named Brigu, who codified social laws prevalent in ancient times. There is no mention of this book in the Vedas,the Gita and most certainly not in Advaita. In fact many of the Hindu holy books directly counter what is written there. This book is usually brought up by Hindu haters (like the ones we find on this board) because they want a stick to beat Hindus with. Not being able to counter any of the sayings in Advaita or the Vedas, they started bashing social customs and tried to link it with religion. It was later joined by our Pseudo-Seculars and Islamists because they could not logically counter any valid criticism of the Quran and Hadith and chose to divert attention by saying that ‘your religion is also like that’.
Sanjukta said:”This whole argument is so baseless. It is proven worldwide that the same holy book of Islam is being interpreted differently. Taliban was also following Islam and Pakistan also follows Islam but not everything is same in these 2 places. Sania Mirza and Diya mirza are also muslim woman and so are the women next door covered top to bottom in burkha but they interpreted their codes of conduct differently and ended up followoing Islam diffenretly.”
What you are saying is absolutely correct. People have different interpretations of the Quran. However in all Muslim majority countries you find the following common features: 1) Discrimination against women, 2) Lack of democracy and freedom of expression, 3) Suppression of minorities and 4) Poor economic growth. We have Islamic countries ranging from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan to Malaysia, why is it that we don’t have even one fast growing economy. Even Malaysia and Indonesia, despite being close to a fast growth tiger like China cannot grow faster than 5.5-6%, while Hindu India zooms ahead at 8.5 -9%. The story of Saudi Arabia is even more pathetic, in 1975 its per capita GDP was $25K and in 2005 it was $8K and is currently at 17K(due to high oil prices) ! This means that all the religious Muslims in that country are 3 times poorer now than they were in 1975!
Just think coolly, Saudi Arabia is a country which follows Islam to the book. They never take a major decision without consulting their holy books.
So why are all these diverse countries suffering the same fate despite having different interpretations of the Quran??
Its not just the Muslim majority countries. Even in places where Muslims are in a minority they languish at the bottom of the social ladder. In the richest and most free country on the planet (USA), they scrape at the bottom with more than 35% making less than $35000 (close to poverty line for a large family), while Hindus are unbelievably wealthy with 43% making more than 100K (http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons). The sachar committee report has shown that they are no better in India.
Agreed that all Muslims in the world are not uncivilized but statistics show that there is something wrong with most of them.
Sanjukta says:”So don’t you Hindu champions taint an entire section of people as uncivilized and barbaric just because they belong to a certain religion. Civilization is in the minds, not so much in the religion.”
Nobody is saying that all Muslims are like that we are just pointing to the majority. Thats why there is a saying “Majority of Muslims are not terrorists but Majority of Terrorists are Muslims”
@1con,
Kuch galat baat kahaa? Point the flaws in my comment or tell me how I can tell it more sweetly, as I’m trying to turn a new leaf. What is so offensive about my writing, its only statistics and logic?
1conoclast
098
2:02 am
mm…
You’ve said it very sweetly. I’m smiling for the first time since we began conversing. You do seem to be turning over a new leaf. I’m really beginning to get suitably impressed.
I’ve told you what I’ve found offensive about your writing. Do you really want me to repeat all of what I have said earlier…? I’ll say it one last time: I think you approach all things Islamic with a bias that defies your stated education.
Allow me to explain:
“Even in places where Muslims are in a minority they languish at the bottom of the social ladder”: Is this why the men like the Sultan of Brunei & the Aga Khan are some of the richest men in the world? Is this why the previous Aga Khan was the head of the erstwhile League of Nations??? Is this why the Rupee is one-hundredth of the Riyal? Is this why lakhs of Hindus flock to the United Arab Emirates to eke out a living?
It may also be worthwhile to remember that Islam has embraced those that no one else wants to accept. It’s a long climb up from where some of those people were. I hope I’m making sense. You’ve been presenting (or looking at) only one point of view.
“Majority of Muslims are not terrorists but Majority of Terrorists are Muslims
1conoclast
099
2:28 am
mm…
You seem to have missed my earlier reply to you. I was very keen on taking you up on your offer…
http://mutiny.in/2008/02/25/we-shall-live-to-the-end-of-times-for-we-have-done-no-wrong/#comment-48631
Vinod Tuli
100
8:11 pm
Dear Editor and the author please.
After going thru the article and subsequent debate I am rather disappointed the way a SCHOLARLY piece on your site for serious and intellectual readers was treated or mistreated, if I may say so, by commentators from all walks of life. Indeed the debate is interesting. I wish to congratulate the author and add that VIVEKANANDA has always been an idol for youth during the past century including this author who penned down a small piece at the age of 15, way back in late 1950s. Kudos is due to Mr. Mahesh. Keep it up Youngman for awakening the youth which is being digressed, misled by so called modern ‘thinkers’. VINOD TULI. India.
1conoclast
101
3:06 pm
Vinod Tuli,
This HARDLY qualifies as a well researched article. It is a collection of empty claims & baseless allegations that the author doesn’t even care to defend!!!
Your research too is faulty. Mahesh is hardly a “youngman”. A visit to his profile will tell you. That is the problem with your types. You just look at one thing & jump to conclusions without fully researching the issue!
Cosmican
102
5:05 am
@Mahesh: I should say you have written a great post. Its one of the best and my favorite in this blog, and I second your thoughts. I firmly believe that Hinduism lasts forever… or atleast as long as humans exist. Hinduism in its purest form is the right way to live, and has the real truth conveyed in various forms so that it can be understood and practiced by people of every mindset and intellectual levels.
Analyzing history, we have seen the Muslim invaders, British colonies and several christian missionaries that tried to establish their own religion and completely wipe out Hinduism. None of them could succeed in the past as we can see hinduism practiced all over India (exceptions excluded). No evil forces can stop us grow.
Bottom line is that long live hinduism forever… Great post!
Sanjukta
103
5:13 pm
@Vinod Tuli..
This is a very moving political speech but not at all a well researched article.